On 29 May 2014, at 05:33, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
wrote:
Ok, so let's talk some specifics.
Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic expression.
Famously on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and several people
for drawing Mohammed. When I was living in Paris, the building of a
small publication was bombed for publishing a drawing of Mohammed.
The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the company
of those who blaspheme, till they do not change to another topic. It
does not prescribe any of the above forms of punishment.
OK.
Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being raped,
their husbands are allowed to beat them (against their will, I have
nothing against consensual BDSM), they are sentenced to stoning to
death for adultery (even when they were raped), they have to dress
in a certain way and can be publicly lashed for not doing so and
they are prevented from going to school. Even recently, young girls
were attacked for attending school.
The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for adulterers
Is that not a blaspheme? Using the 'Name' as authority in the temporal
moral code realm.
If two person decide to live together and promise to God maintaining
fidelity, say for 500 years, and one betrayed the other, it is only
the other, and God which have to handle this. Not the friends, not the
family, not the Government. Just each others, the person involved,
and, if they need, the helps of shamans and wise or spiritual persons.
I don't think that any humans or group of humans, can intentionally
harm other humans without consent (with rare exception like the
legitimate defense).
The problem comes only from the literalist interpretation.
We can vote for laws, and nobody should forbid you to consult sacred
books or God, if you can, or divine subaltern in Heaven (in case you
found a two way shortcut) before voting, but the laws should not refer
to It, and I think cannot, refer to It without blaspheming.
A famous another example of such blaspheme. is Genghis Khan's
statement ""I am the punishment of God. If you had not committed great
sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you."
The good guy get a sadist impulse? He believes in God, so he take it
as a sign that he has a right to hurt someone, as his divine pleasure
assures him that its victim has necessarily committed great sin, that
God allows a good fellow like him/her to torture.
(not rape victim); for that 4 witnesses of the crime are required,
and if the witnesses are found to be lying, then 80 lashes for the
persons who give false witness, and they are to be banned from
bearing witness in any other case.
Regarding beating by husbands, you refer to 4:15. I think the
interpretation of the word d-r-b is incorrect, and it is separation
which is advised, not beating. However, most translators and
scholars insist it means beating. I disagree.
I am glad you disagree, and I appreciate that honest statement.
In the comp 'fairy tale", it is said that if you kill all the humans
for your own pleasure, well, you have still some chance to go to
heaven, but if you hurt a fly's leg and justify the act with the name
of the unnameable, there is much less hope.
Quran advises (24:31) women the covering of their bosoms with
scarf; head covering is not explicitly stated but it's traditional
in almost all religions. Mother Mary's statues all show her head
covered. Muslims did not make those statues. Also, till about a
century ago, almost all people, men and women, used to wear some
sort of headgear, in most cultures.
The Quran also advises (33:59) draping a cloak over the body, when
going out, if one fears for her safety. Is that good advise?
Homosexuality is considered a crime.
Yes, the people of Sodom received divine punished for it. Verse 4:16
contains guidance for how to deal with this crime.
See above.
Limb amputation is considered an acceptable punishment.
Quran (5:38) prescribes cutting off the hand of the thief. I believe
it is implemented in Saudi Arabia where theft incidences are very
low. However, I have heard scholars argue that such laws can only be
implemented in an ideal Islamic welfare society where excuses /
rationale for theft are almost non-existent, and thereby stealing is
a pure crime, not borne of any need for survival.
So, my question to you is this: do you condemn these actions? If
so, do you claim that they stem from a misunderstanding of the Quran?
I am a Muslim. I believe the Quran to be divine guidance. Therefore,
I accept everything in it, and try to understand the best meaning
thereof.
It is hidden, it can't be literal. (provably so assuming comp + some
"simple definition", and even in comp the G/G* theory cannot be taken
literally.
Humans can be very influenced by their education. Imagine that at the
age of two month you would have been raised by christians, or by
atheists, or think about any existing religion, do you think you would
have been Muslim?
The real sacred book is in your heart, it makes you "invariant" for
the sacred texts.
However, on this forum, I only invite you all to benefit from the
factual accuracy of the Quran in your efforts to understand the
world of science. I am not asking anyone to become a Muslim. Faith,
we believe, is God's gift to the willing heart.
You talk like if the Muslims have the monopoly of faith.
It is a bit like telling us that you found the truth, and that the non-
muslims are erring.
You might introduced a non needed dichotomy.
If you want do science, I am afraid you need to train yourself in much
more doubt and modesty.
Only the gigantic doubt can reveal the most certain part of reality,
and deepen the faith, by notably making it more independent from the
human words, images and stories.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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