Mich: as long as the Faithful think of God in their (natural) mind the God they think of IS natural. We cannot think of a supernatural with our "natural" mentality and limitations. Anything " WE " think about God is within the (our!) natural order. Limited into our "model" of knowables. We can "TALK" about supernatural - it is "TALK" (Blah Blah). Contentless.
Whoever 'created' - H E L L - was planning on uncontrollable sinners to populate it. If it has been created for humans, our kind is imperfect and uncontrollable and the 'final' judgement must be non-forgiving to put them into Hell. Or is it a contract with Satan? JM On Tue, Jun 24, 2014 at 11:34 AM, spudboy100 via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote: > What about this Irish Times article? It seems to be out of the box > thinking. I don't know, if true, that it has any value for the human > species? But it might in my imagination. My imagination, plus 3.50, can get > me a coffee latte. Any thoughts, condemnatory or laudatory. > > > > http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/what-if-god-were-part-of-the-natural-order-1.1836816 > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> > To: everything-list <[email protected]> > Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:39 am > Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! > > > On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:39, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > > > > On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear John, >> >> it is wasted time and effort to argue "who is right" in a question >> that raises 2 billion children in a 'faith' they will live by - AND such >> 'faith' does include the killing of 'infidels' (meaning: who do not share >> their faith to the last comma) and many more peculiarities which our part >> of the world would not accept anymore. There is no question about 'truth', >> believability, oracles and supernatural wisdom, there is a 1500 year old >> power over billions of people with no questions asking and willing to do >> whatever they believe has to be done. >> >> >> It is the same problem with christianism, but such structure has shown >> to be able to evolve a bit. Then I would differentiate muslims, literalist >> muslim, and fanatics. Only the later are dangerous. >> >> I think that Samiya is open to discussion, even if it is not clear how >> far she is to doubt the literal Quran, which of course is necessary at the >> start if only to see if it contains anything "scientific" (in physics, >> biology, ... but also theology). >> >> This hides the real roots of fundamentalism which is that we have >> forbid the use of science (that is the skeptical spirit since well, indeed >> 1500 years. >> >> >> Regarding skepticism, the High Holy Days service of Judaism contains > a prayer for the value of doubt. Not sure how far back the origin of that > prayer is in time, but it certainly contributes to regard that Jews have > for science. > > > Interesting. In fact judaism; like taoism, and branches of buddhism > encourage the comments to the sacred texts, and allow a sort of > jurisprudence making possible some notion of amendment, and favorize the > non literal reading of texts. > > > Google does not seem to know of its existence. > > > The net does not know everything, and contains a lot of propaganda of > many kinds. > > Bruno > > > > > Richard > >> >> >> There were argumentations a millennium ago, but the sword answered. >> Wars and wars. >> We have different vocabularies and both sides understand things >> differently. >> >> >> Those are political, if not economical war, disguised in religious war. >> >> >> >> >> I do not say which part is 'better-or-worse' I am just sorry for an >> advanced worldview getting erased by a violent ancient force that >> overwhelms our civilisation. (Q: are WE civil, indeed?) >> >> >> An ancient force like fire can erase in few weeks what needed an >> incredibly long/deep history like a tree or a forest. >> >> It is in the nature of wiseness and advanced mind to be the easy prey >> for violence. >> >> Are we civil? Well, officially, the US is no more since the 31 december >> 2011 (NDAA 12). But the bad seed comes from something older than Kennedy's >> assassination. >> >> There is a problem with radical islamism, but the real problem is in >> the exploitation of that problem by bandits to hide their lucrative >> criminal activities. >> >> The war on drugs and the war on terror are de facto non stopping wars >> which constantly create and fuel its "enemy". >> >> The value of money is based on trust which needs *fair* competition, >> and a notion of genuine use, but the society get a cancer when money is >> used to create "fake money", based on lies or on problems created for that >> purpose. >> >> Bandits might be a progress compared to dictator using god to justify >> its job. So we are not civil, but still can become. >> >> Virgin lôbian number seem civil at the start. Uncivilness seems to be >> only a bad habit, a "passage" similar to some dilemmas in game theory, when >> you can make a very big win by ceasing cooperation. May be that's a devil's >> temptation, or the fall from sane egoism into psychopathic or paranoid >> egocentrism. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> John M >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 29 May 2014, at 05:33, Samiya Illias wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>> Ok, so let's talk some specifics. >>> >>> Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic expression. >>> Famously on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and several people for >>> drawing Mohammed. When I was living in Paris, the building of a small >>> publication was bombed for publishing a drawing of Mohammed. >>> >>> >>> The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the company of >>> those who blaspheme, till they do not change to another topic. It does not >>> prescribe any of the above forms of punishment. >>> >>> >>> OK. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being raped, >>> their husbands are allowed to beat them (against their will, I have nothing >>> against consensual BDSM), they are sentenced to stoning to death for >>> adultery (even when they were raped), they have to dress in a certain way >>> and can be publicly lashed for not doing so and they are prevented from >>> going to school. Even recently, young girls were attacked for attending >>> school. >>> >>> The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for adulterers >>> >>> >>> >>> Is that not a blaspheme? Using the 'Name' as authority in the temporal >>> moral code realm. >>> >>> If two person decide to live together and promise to God maintaining >>> fidelity, say for 500 years, and one betrayed the other, it is only the >>> other, and God which have to handle this. Not the friends, not the family, >>> not the Government. Just each others, the person involved, and, if they >>> need, the helps of shamans and wise or spiritual persons. >>> >>> I don't think that any humans or group of humans, can intentionally >>> harm other humans without consent (with rare exception like the legitimate >>> defense). >>> >>> The problem comes only from the literalist interpretation. >>> >>> We can vote for laws, and nobody should forbid you to consult sacred >>> books or God, if you can, or divine subaltern in Heaven (in case you found >>> a two way shortcut) before voting, but the laws should not refer to It, and >>> I think cannot, refer to It without blaspheming. >>> >>> A famous another example of such blaspheme. is Genghis Khan's >>> statement ""I am the punishment of God. If you had not committed great >>> sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you." >>> >>> The good guy get a sadist impulse? He believes in God, so he take it >>> as a sign that he has a right to hurt someone, as his divine pleasure >>> assures him that its victim has necessarily committed great sin, that God >>> allows a good fellow like him/her to torture. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> (not rape victim); for that 4 witnesses of the crime are required, >>> and if the witnesses are found to be lying, then 80 lashes for the persons >>> who give false witness, and they are to be banned from bearing witness in >>> any other case. >>> >>> Regarding beating by husbands, you refer to 4:15. I think the >>> interpretation of the word d-r-b is incorrect, and it is separation which >>> is advised, not beating. However, most translators and scholars insist it >>> means beating. I disagree. >>> >>> >>> I am glad you disagree, and I appreciate that honest statement. >>> >>> In the comp 'fairy tale", it is said that if you kill all the humans >>> for your own pleasure, well, you have still some chance to go to heaven, >>> but if you hurt a fly's leg and justify the act with the name of the >>> unnameable, there is much less hope. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Quran advises (24:31) women the covering of their bosoms with scarf; >>> head covering is not explicitly stated but it's traditional in almost all >>> religions. Mother Mary's statues all show her head covered. Muslims did not >>> make those statues. Also, till about a century ago, almost all people, men >>> and women, used to wear some sort of headgear, in most cultures. >>> The Quran also advises (33:59) draping a cloak over the body, when going >>> out, if one fears for her safety. Is that good advise? >>> >>> Homosexuality is considered a crime. >>> >>> Yes, the people of Sodom received divine punished for it. Verse 4:16 >>> contains guidance for how to deal with this crime. >>> >>> >>> See above. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Limb amputation is considered an acceptable punishment. >>> >>> Quran (5:38) prescribes cutting off the hand of the thief. I believe >>> it is implemented in Saudi Arabia where theft incidences are very low. >>> However, I have heard scholars argue that such laws can only be implemented >>> in an ideal Islamic welfare society where excuses / rationale for theft are >>> almost non-existent, and thereby stealing is a pure crime, not borne of any >>> need for survival. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> So, my question to you is this: do you condemn these actions? If so, >>> do you claim that they stem from a misunderstanding of the Quran? >>> >>> >>> I am a Muslim. I believe the Quran to be divine guidance. Therefore, I >>> accept everything in it, and try to understand the best meaning thereof. >>> >>> >>> It is hidden, it can't be literal. (provably so assuming comp + some >>> "simple definition", and even in comp the G/G* theory cannot be taken >>> literally. >>> >>> Humans can be very influenced by their education. Imagine that at the >>> age of two month you would have been raised by christians, or by atheists, >>> or think about any existing religion, do you think you would have been >>> Muslim? >>> >>> The real sacred book is in your heart, it makes you "invariant" for >>> the sacred texts. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> However, on this forum, I only invite you all to benefit from the >>> factual accuracy of the Quran in your efforts to understand the world of >>> science. I am not asking anyone to become a Muslim. Faith, we believe, is >>> God's gift to the willing heart. >>> >>> >>> >>> You talk like if the Muslims have the monopoly of faith. >>> >>> It is a bit like telling us that you found the truth, and that the >>> non-muslims are erring. >>> >>> You might introduced a non needed dichotomy. >>> >>> If you want do science, I am afraid you need to train yourself in much >>> more doubt and modesty. >>> >>> Only the gigantic doubt can reveal the most certain part of reality, >>> and deepen the faith, by notably making it more independent from the human >>> words, images and stories. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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