> On 29-May-2014, at 7:56 pm, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 5:33 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >> >>> On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> Ok, so let's talk some specifics. >>> >>> Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic expression. >>> Famously on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and several people for >>> drawing Mohammed. When I was living in Paris, the building of a small >>> publication was bombed for publishing a drawing of Mohammed. >> >> The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the company of those >> who blaspheme, till they do not change to another topic. It does not >> prescribe any of the above forms of punishment. >> >>> >>> Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being raped, their >>> husbands are allowed to beat them (against their will, I have nothing >>> against consensual BDSM), they are sentenced to stoning to death for >>> adultery (even when they were raped), they have to dress in a certain way >>> and can be publicly lashed for not doing so and they are prevented from >>> going to school. Even recently, young girls were attacked for attending >>> school. >> The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for adulterers (not rape >> victim); for that 4 witnesses of the crime are required, and if the >> witnesses are found to be lying, then 80 lashes for the persons who give >> false witness, and they are to be banned from bearing witness in any other >> case. >> >> Regarding beating by husbands, you refer to 4:15. I think the interpretation >> of the word d-r-b is incorrect, and it is separation which is advised, not >> beating. However, most translators and scholars insist it means beating. I >> disagree. >> >> Quran advises (24:31) women the covering of their bosoms with scarf; head >> covering is not explicitly stated but it's traditional in almost all >> religions. Mother Mary's statues all show her head covered. Muslims did not >> make those statues. Also, till about a century ago, almost all people, men >> and women, used to wear some sort of headgear, in most cultures. >> The Quran also advises (33:59) draping a cloak over the body, when going >> out, if one fears for her safety. Is that good advise? >> >>> Homosexuality is considered a crime. >> Yes, the people of Sodom received divine punished for it. Verse 4:16 >> contains guidance for how to deal with this crime. >> >>> Limb amputation is considered an acceptable punishment. >> Quran (5:38) prescribes cutting off the hand of the thief. I believe it is >> implemented in Saudi Arabia where theft incidences are very low. However, I >> have heard scholars argue that such laws can only be implemented in an ideal >> Islamic welfare society where excuses / rationale for theft are almost >> non-existent, and thereby stealing is a pure crime, not borne of any need >> for survival. >> >>> So, my question to you is this: do you condemn these actions? If so, do you >>> claim that they stem from a misunderstanding of the Quran? >> >> I am a Muslim. I believe the Quran to be divine guidance. Therefore, I >> accept everything in it, and try to understand the best meaning thereof. >> However, on this forum, I only invite you all to benefit from the factual >> accuracy of the Quran in your efforts to understand the world of science. I >> am not asking anyone to become a Muslim. Faith, we believe, is God's gift to >> the willing heart. > > You're avoiding the point. Your specific claim was that the Quran teachings > are ethical, and that perceptions to the contrary stem from media > disinformation. So I submitted to you a list of things that make me conclude > that the Quran teachings are unethical. Very honestly, my previous beliefs > were reinforced. We have unreconcilable views on ethics. > > Telmo.
Yes, our views are different. We think it unethical to cheat on our spouse, we think it's wrong to steal, we think it's perfectly ethical for a woman to try and protect herself, and so on. You object to the punishment, we object to the crime. We believe the Quran has been revealed by a higher intelligence who knows us inside out, and guides us in matters where we may not be able to legislate appropriately. We believe the laws are based on morally sound principles of justice and fair play. You're entitled to your opinion, but I strongly advise that you evaluate and ascertain for yourself that the Quran is a human invention, and not divine guidance, lest you reject something great! Samiya > >> >> Samiya >> >>> >>> Telmo. >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 6:50 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> You assume that Islam is unethical. Quranic teachings are based on >>>> beautiful moral principles and enjoin ethical and just relations among >>>> people. The Quran repeatedly enjoins good actions, read it and you'll be >>>> amazed how far from truth all the negative propaganda against it is! >>>> Whether people study and follow the scripture or not is up to them. If we >>>> start following the guidance, most of the social evils will be weeded out. >>>> Sadly, you confuse peoples' thoughts, behaviour and actions with the >>>> message itself. It really doesn't matter if we label ourselves as Muslims, >>>> Jews, or any other religion or not, or if we are a member of the clergy or >>>> hold any leadership position in the community, it is basically our >>>> beliefs, intentions and actions that make us who we are and which we carry >>>> with us when we depart from this life. >>>> >>>> Samiya >>>> >>>>> On 28-May-2014, at 8:52 pm, spudboy100 via Everything List >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> For me, its the actual physical, ethics, that need to be tuned up. >>>>> Getting to paradise, however delightful, over someone's dead body is >>>>> unethical. Morality, is between humans and God technically, but ethics is >>>>> between people. God, as he exists, can take care of himself, but the all >>>>> the humbleness in the world, devotion, passion, cannot correct issues, if >>>>> the Imams, and Muftis, instruct otherwise. Even if the Koran, Soonah, and >>>>> Bukhari are all God given and have predictions that only God would know, >>>>> it does no good if the earth gets drowned in blood by seekers of >>>>> paradise. Unhelpful indeed. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: LizR <[email protected]> >>>>> To: everything-list <[email protected]> >>>>> Sent: Wed, May 28, 2014 12:32 am >>>>> Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! >>>>> >>>>> Here's page 1307 - I would prefer it if you quoted whatever it is you're >>>>> referring to rather than giving a link to a (rather difficult to access) >>>>> online book, because it doesn't mean much to me... >>>>> <page1307.png> >>>>> >>>>> As for the second link, I don't understand what it says there either - it >>>>> certainly isn't a very succinct "summary". >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> On 28 May 2014 16:19, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> There is a debate between the interpretation of the word s-j-d. I assume >>>>>> it also means to become lowly, humble, submissive, and not only physical >>>>>> prostration. [http://www.tyndalearchive.com/tabs/lane/ Book 1 Page 1307 >>>>>> ] >>>>>> Summary of why is can't only mean physical prostration: >>>>>> http://www.mypercept.co.uk/articles/Summary-problems-sujud-prostration-Quran.html >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:10 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> Does it also explain how planets prostrate themselves? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 28 May 2014 15:51, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>> I won't be surprised if they eventually discover that there are a >>>>>>>> total of 11 or 12 planets in the solar system. >>>>>>>> [Al-Qur'an 12:4, Translator: Pickthall] When Joseph said unto his >>>>>>>> father: O my father! Lo! I saw in a dream eleven planets and the sun >>>>>>>> and the moon, I saw them prostrating themselves unto me. >>>>>>>> [Al-Qur'an 12:100, Translator: Pickthall] And he placed his parents on >>>>>>>> the dais and they fell down before him prostrate, and he said: O my >>>>>>>> father! This is the interpretation of my dream of old. My Lord hath >>>>>>>> made it true, and He hath shown me kindness, since He took me out of >>>>>>>> the prison and hath brought you from the desert after Satan had made >>>>>>>> strife between me and my brethren. Lo! my Lord is tender unto whom He >>>>>>>> will. He is the Knower, the Wise. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Samiya >>>>>>>> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:35 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Pluto Bids To Get Back Planetary Status >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Pluto has at least five moons, an atmosphere and now a new analysis >>>>>>>>>> places its diameter as bigger than its outer solar system rival Eris. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode/pluto-bids-for-planethood/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. 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