RE: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]

Sun, 22 Jun 2014 01:51:38 -0700 

 

 

From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Mikes

 

Dear Chris,

not that your answer sounds a bit vague - I have deeper problems.

 

I can understand your point of view – though I am not quite certain what it is 
either. However basic terms like “black” need to be commonly understood (at 
least to some threshold of shared meaning) in order for a symbolic system that 
employs them to be effective as a means of bridging the gulf from mind to mind.

Not questioning your right to be skeptical, and in fact am appreciative of the 
perspective you bring, but isn’t it also important for there to be broad 
agreement on the meaning of terms?

Cheers,

Chris

 

In my lately (2+decades) absobed agnostic views I find our science a bit 
incomplete as explanatory ideas (with mathematical underlying) upon poorly 
understood (iff...?) phenomena adjusted both into the previous images AND the 
capabilities of our present mentality (previous meaning here: based on an 
inventory of old, explained as well on the basis of the THEN theories we could 
manage). 

I find the dark things (matter, energy, hole) exciting and brilliant. Not 
'real'. 

They serve well in bringing our incomplete theories into a fit (just as the 
'inflation' after the Big Bang etc.).

As a former chemist (1/2c polymer pioneering) I do not believe (my own?) 
molecules of which I derived implemented technologies. They are maybe-s. How 
'bout infinite complexities?

 

Throw in infinite combinations of basic physical constants into the mix of the 
multiverse and what do you get?

How much can the brain contain before triggering whiteout --  total information 
overload inducing sudden mental paralysis? I jest but it truly can become mind 
boggling.

Cheers,

Chris

 

Best regards

 

John M 

 

On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 11:37 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
<[email protected]> wrote:

 

 

From: [email protected] 
[mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of John Mikes
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 1:52 PM
To: [email protected]


Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping 
the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]

 

They ARE black! Our eyes err. - Without joke:

how about those plants that are not green? do they have a chlorophyl 

variation that is not green? or a different photosynth-mechsm?

JM

 

Not sure I understand what you are saying – How I have understood the terms -- 
darkness (or black materials as well) is the absence of photons, or for a black 
material the absorption of incident photons.  Plants reflect a large number of 
photons. This glaring (well reflective at least LOL) sub-optimal utilization of 
available spectrum does seem to indicate that this could be the result of a 
local evolutionary optima as Russell suggested. 

My – off the top of my head guess – would be that the genetics and/or the 
molecular machinery of chloroplasts have evolved into this corner and cannot 
back out of this local optimization without breaking the machinery in place 
that is necessary in order to sustain the organism. Even with this sub-optimal 
apparatus green plants have done well for themselves on earth – a life form 
just needs to be good enough to outcompete the alternatives and fill an 
environmental niche (until it meets its match or the edge boundaries of the 
niche in which it has a competitive advantage)

Cheers,

Chris

 

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 8:15 PM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote:

I have long thought that plants should be black, too, for this reason. Anyone 
know why not?

 

On 20 June 2014 11:40, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
<[email protected]> wrote:

Perhaps because the two mechanisms function quite differently and apparently 
evolved independently. But I also sometimes wonder why in the many hundreds of 
millions of years of time that no species has found a way to utilize the 
missing chunk of spectrum.

A perfect plant would have jet black leaves -- and use photons across all 
wavelengths of the spectrum. Then there truly would be black forests.

Chris

 

 

Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook 
<https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/>
 

        
        
 
<https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/>
 image

         
<https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/>
 Bacteriorhodopsin - Boundless Open Textbook

Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner 
independent of chlorophyll. Read more about bacteriorhodopsin in the Bou...

        


 
<https://www.boundless.com/microbiology/microbial-metabolism/phototrophy/bacteriorhodopsin/>
 View on www.boundless.com

Preview by Yahoo

        
                                                

 


Bacteriorhodopsin acts a proton pump, generating cellular energy in a manner 
independent of chlorophyll.


KEY POINTS


· Bacteriorhodopsin is a proton pump found in Archaea, it takes light energy 
and coverts it into chemical energy, ATP, that can be used by the cell for 
cellular functions.

· Bacteriorhodopsin forms chains, which contain retinal  
<https://www.boundless.com/definition/molecules/> molecule within, it is the 
retinal molecule that absorbs a photon from light, it then changes the 
confirmation of the nearby Bacteriorhodopsin protein, allowing it to act as a 
proton pump.

· While chlorophyll based ATP generation depends on a protein gradient, like 
bacteriorhodopsin, but with striking differences, suggesting that phototrophy 
evolved in  <https://www.boundless.com/definition/bacteria/> bacteria and 
archaea independently of each other.

[snip]

These [bacteriochlorophylls ] also produce a proton gradient, but in a quite 
different and more indirect way involving an electron transfer chain consisting 
of several other proteins. Furthermore, chlorophylls are aided in capturing 
light energy by other pigments known as "antennas"; these are not present in 
bacteriorhodopsin-based systems. Last, chlorophyll-based phototrophy is coupled 
to carbon  <https://www.boundless.com/definition/fixation/> fixation (the 
incorporation of carbon dioxide into larger organic molecules) and for that 
reason is photosynthesis, which is not true for bacteriorhodopsin-based system. 

 

 

  _____  

From: meekerdb <[email protected]>
To: [email protected] 
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 10:51 AM


Subject: Re: Solar power's "bright future" [ may be brighter thanks to us aping 
the quantum trickery of certain algae (cryptophytes specifically)]

 

On 6/18/2014 3:15 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:

>>But it does illustrate the way evolution can get stuck in a local
optima. And also further evidence that any purported Creator must be
completely incompetent.

 

Evolution always must begin with a preexisting platform -- so to speak -- and 
builds on top of it (in an evolutionary way).


Yes, I'd heard the story about the purple bacteriodopsin that used the middle 
part of the visible spectrum.  But the implication is that these bacteria were 
shading the bacteria or algae that developed chlorophyll.  Which might be true, 
but they've not been shading them for the last billion years or so since plants 
came onto the land.  So I don't see it has a local optimum.  There's a big 
chunk of spectrum right there adjacent to the spectrum being used.  There 
doesn't seem to be any significant barrier.

Brent

 

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