On 24 Jun 2014, at 17:34, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
What about this Irish Times article? It seems to be out of the box
thinking. I don't know, if true, that it has any value for the human
species? But it might in my imagination. My imagination, plus 3.50,
can get me a coffee latte. Any thoughts, condemnatory or laudatory.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/science/what-if-god-were-part-of-the-natural-order-1.1836816
A platonist believes more in god (truth, universal mind) than in
nature (a collective stable hallucination brought by the confluence of
relative stable number dream).
To "naturalize" god is basically a word play, if not the same sort of
blaspheme than pretending some human are god.
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Jun 24, 2014 3:39 am
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 23 Jun 2014, at 18:39, Richard Ruquist wrote:
On Mon, Jun 23, 2014 at 10:47 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
Dear John,
it is wasted time and effort to argue "who is right" in a
question that raises 2 billion children in a 'faith' they will
live by - AND such 'faith' does include the killing of
'infidels' (meaning: who do not share their faith to the last
comma) and many more peculiarities which our part of the world
would not accept anymore. There is no question about 'truth',
believability, oracles and supernatural wisdom, there is a 1500
year old power over billions of people with no questions asking
and willing to do whatever they believe has to be done.
It is the same problem with christianism, but such structure has
shown to be able to evolve a bit. Then I would differentiate
muslims, literalist muslim, and fanatics. Only the later are
dangerous.
I think that Samiya is open to discussion, even if it is not clear
how far she is to doubt the literal Quran, which of course is
necessary at the start if only to see if it contains anything
"scientific" (in physics, biology, ... but also theology).
This hides the real roots of fundamentalism which is that we have
forbid the use of science (that is the skeptical spirit since well,
indeed 1500 years.
Regarding skepticism, the High Holy Days service of Judaism
contains a prayer for the value of doubt. Not sure how far back the
origin of that prayer is in time, but it certainly contributes to
regard that Jews have for science.
Interesting. In fact judaism; like taoism, and branches of buddhism
encourage the comments to the sacred texts, and allow a sort of
jurisprudence making possible some notion of amendment, and favorize
the non literal reading of texts.
Google does not seem to know of its existence.
The net does not know everything, and contains a lot of propaganda
of many kinds.
Bruno
Richard
There were argumentations a millennium ago, but the sword answered.
Wars and wars.
We have different vocabularies and both sides understand things
differently.
Those are political, if not economical war, disguised in religious
war.
I do not say which part is 'better-or-worse' I am just sorry for
an advanced worldview getting erased by a violent ancient force
that overwhelms our civilisation. (Q: are WE civil, indeed?)
An ancient force like fire can erase in few weeks what needed an
incredibly long/deep history like a tree or a forest.
It is in the nature of wiseness and advanced mind to be the easy
prey for violence.
Are we civil? Well, officially, the US is no more since the 31
december 2011 (NDAA 12). But the bad seed comes from something
older than Kennedy's assassination.
There is a problem with radical islamism, but the real problem is
in the exploitation of that problem by bandits to hide their
lucrative criminal activities.
The war on drugs and the war on terror are de facto non stopping
wars which constantly create and fuel its "enemy".
The value of money is based on trust which needs *fair*
competition, and a notion of genuine use, but the society get a
cancer when money is used to create "fake money", based on lies or
on problems created for that purpose.
Bandits might be a progress compared to dictator using god to
justify its job. So we are not civil, but still can become.
Virgin lôbian number seem civil at the start. Uncivilness seems to
be only a bad habit, a "passage" similar to some dilemmas in game
theory, when you can make a very big win by ceasing cooperation.
May be that's a devil's temptation, or the fall from sane egoism
into psychopathic or paranoid egocentrism.
Bruno
John M
On Fri, Jun 20, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
On 29 May 2014, at 05:33, Samiya Illias wrote:
On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes
<te...@telmomenezes.com> wrote:
Ok, so let's talk some specifics.
Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic
expression. Famously on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and
several people for drawing Mohammed. When I was living in Paris,
the building of a small publication was bombed for publishing a
drawing of Mohammed.
The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the
company of those who blaspheme, till they do not change to
another topic. It does not prescribe any of the above forms of
punishment.
OK.
Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being
raped, their husbands are allowed to beat them (against their
will, I have nothing against consensual BDSM), they are
sentenced to stoning to death for adultery (even when they were
raped), they have to dress in a certain way and can be publicly
lashed for not doing so and they are prevented from going to
school. Even recently, young girls were attacked for attending
school.
The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for adulterers
Is that not a blaspheme? Using the 'Name' as authority in the
temporal moral code realm.
If two person decide to live together and promise to God
maintaining fidelity, say for 500 years, and one betrayed the
other, it is only the other, and God which have to handle this.
Not the friends, not the family, not the Government. Just each
others, the person involved, and, if they need, the helps of
shamans and wise or spiritual persons.
I don't think that any humans or group of humans, can
intentionally harm other humans without consent (with rare
exception like the legitimate defense).
The problem comes only from the literalist interpretation.
We can vote for laws, and nobody should forbid you to consult
sacred books or God, if you can, or divine subaltern in Heaven (in
case you found a two way shortcut) before voting, but the laws
should not refer to It, and I think cannot, refer to It without
blaspheming.
A famous another example of such blaspheme. is Genghis Khan's
statement ""I am the punishment of God. If you had not committed
great sins, God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you."
The good guy get a sadist impulse? He believes in God, so he take
it as a sign that he has a right to hurt someone, as his divine
pleasure assures him that its victim has necessarily committed
great sin, that God allows a good fellow like him/her to torture.
(not rape victim); for that 4 witnesses of the crime are
required, and if the witnesses are found to be lying, then 80
lashes for the persons who give false witness, and they are to be
banned from bearing witness in any other case.
Regarding beating by husbands, you refer to 4:15. I think the
interpretation of the word d-r-b is incorrect, and it is
separation which is advised, not beating. However, most
translators and scholars insist it means beating. I disagree.
I am glad you disagree, and I appreciate that honest statement.
In the comp 'fairy tale", it is said that if you kill all the
humans for your own pleasure, well, you have still some chance to
go to heaven, but if you hurt a fly's leg and justify the act with
the name of the unnameable, there is much less hope.
Quran advises (24:31) women the covering of their bosoms with
scarf; head covering is not explicitly stated but it's
traditional in almost all religions. Mother Mary's statues all
show her head covered. Muslims did not make those statues. Also,
till about a century ago, almost all people, men and women, used
to wear some sort of headgear, in most cultures.
The Quran also advises (33:59) draping a cloak over the body,
when going out, if one fears for her safety. Is that good advise?
Homosexuality is considered a crime.
Yes, the people of Sodom received divine punished for it. Verse
4:16 contains guidance for how to deal with this crime.
See above.
Limb amputation is considered an acceptable punishment.
Quran (5:38) prescribes cutting off the hand of the thief. I
believe it is implemented in Saudi Arabia where theft incidences
are very low. However, I have heard scholars argue that such laws
can only be implemented in an ideal Islamic welfare society where
excuses / rationale for theft are almost non-existent, and
thereby stealing is a pure crime, not borne of any need for
survival.
So, my question to you is this: do you condemn these actions? If
so, do you claim that they stem from a misunderstanding of the
Quran?
I am a Muslim. I believe the Quran to be divine guidance.
Therefore, I accept everything in it, and try to understand the
best meaning thereof.
It is hidden, it can't be literal. (provably so assuming comp +
some "simple definition", and even in comp the G/G* theory cannot
be taken literally.
Humans can be very influenced by their education. Imagine that at
the age of two month you would have been raised by christians, or
by atheists, or think about any existing religion, do you think
you would have been Muslim?
The real sacred book is in your heart, it makes you "invariant"
for the sacred texts.
However, on this forum, I only invite you all to benefit from the
factual accuracy of the Quran in your efforts to understand the
world of science. I am not asking anyone to become a Muslim.
Faith, we believe, is God's gift to the willing heart.
You talk like if the Muslims have the monopoly of faith.
It is a bit like telling us that you found the truth, and that the
non-muslims are erring.
You might introduced a non needed dichotomy.
If you want do science, I am afraid you need to train yourself in
much more doubt and modesty.
Only the gigantic doubt can reveal the most certain part of
reality, and deepen the faith, by notably making it more
independent from the human words, images and stories.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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