On 01 Jul 2014, at 07:59, meekerdb wrote:
On 6/30/2014 9:35 PM, LizR wrote:
ISTM...
In primitive materialism, what exists are space / time and matter /
energy. Information is an emergent property of the arrangements of
those things, like entropy. Neither of these exist at the level of
fundamental particles, or Planck cells, or strings, or whatever
else may be the primitive mass-energy/space-time) involved.
There are problems with this view if information has primitive
status, which would indicate that the real picture is something
like "it from bit" or what might be called "primitive
informationism". Evidence for PI come from the entropy
of black holes, the black hole information paradox, the Landauer
limit, the Beckenstein bound, the holographic principle, and
(unless I already covered that) the requirement that erasing a bit
of information requires some irreducible amount of energy. (And
maybe some other things I don't know about ... perish the thought).
That's the Landauer limit, which isn't really relevant at a
fundamental level. It's a thermodynamic law which is reducible to
statistical mechanics.
PI isn't equivalent to comp, but from what you said above PI might
be a necessary consequence of comp, which would give the
"ontological chain" arithmetic -> consciousness -> information ->
matter (I think ... this is all "ISTM" of course).
OK, except I think the chain is:
arithmetic -> information -> matter -> consciousness -> arithmetic
Arithmetic, even one diophantine equation can supports loop of that
kind.
There is a "paradoxal" combinator which provides solution to such loop
Yx = x(Yx). Y provides semantical fixed point, and you can get the
second recursion theorem too.
Like in general relativity Gödel show the existence of circular time
loop.
Any way the "->" are not temporal, but logical, or epistemological.
and I'm not so inclined to take it as more than another possible
model of the world. I think of it as a way to describe and predict
and think about the world; but without supposing that it's possible
to prove or to know with certainty the world must be that way.
The criteria remains the same. That's why I insist that comp + some
definition of knowledge can be tested.
As for A Garrett Lisi, I was under the impression that his
particles were something like a "point in a weight diagram" - or
something - which sounds to me at least like some form of
information theoretic entity. But I have to admit my understanding
of how birds and flowers could emerge from the E8 group or whatever
it's called is, well, about like this...
In a way, all of fundamental physics posits information theoretic
entities. "Particles" are nothing more than "what satisfies
particle equations". Bruno complains about Aristotle and "primitive
matter", but I don't know any physicists who go around saying,"I've
discovered primitive matter."
That's is exactly why I have no complains on physicists. Most are
neutral on this. Some are christians.
I "complain" only about physicalist. And I don't complain, I just show
them epistemologically inconsistent if they assumes comp together with
physicalism.
I certainly complain when they eliminate person and consciousness.
or "Let's work on finding primitive matter." They just want a
theory that is a little more comprehensive, a little more accurate,
a little more predictive than the one they have now. And they
couldn't care less what stuff is needed in their theory - only that
it works.
That is your right, but that is not an argument to defend this or that
theory when the goal is the search of the truth.
Bruno
Brent
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