2014-07-12 21:17 GMT+02:00 meekerdb <[email protected]>: > On 7/12/2014 1:23 AM, LizR wrote: > > Brent, > > You left me hanging a week or so ago, and never got back to me about > something I'm interested in finding out more about. > > On 2 July 2014 23:14, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: > >> On 2 July 2014 17:06, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> On 7/1/2014 9:42 PM, LizR wrote: >>> >>> On 2 July 2014 15:46, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> OK, so how does that work? Like I said, I don't understand it. >>>> Intuitively, saying that A causes B and B causes A doesn't appear to make >>>> sense, >>>> >>>> It's not a causal relationship, it's an explanatory "->". >>>> >>> >>> Sorry I should have said "explains" although I thought it was obvious >>> I was using causal in an explanatory sense, not a physical one. Anyway, >>> please continue the explanation. >>> >>> You don't understand what is meant by "physics -> biology" or "biology >>> -> evolution -> mathematics" or "mathematics -> physics"? >>> >>> Yes I do. >> >> And there you stopped. I'm still waiting for you to continue the > explanation. > > To refresh your memory, you said: > > OK, except I think the chain is: >> arithmetic -> information -> matter -> consciousness -> arithmetic > > > To which I objected that I couldn't see how this makes sense globally, > even if each local step makes sense. You appear to be claiming that there > is no such thing as a fundamental explanatory level. Since this flies in > the face of 3+ centuries of scientific progress (based on reductionism, > which assumes there *is* a fundamental explanatory level) > > > It's just that I noted that fundamental physics has become almost entirely > abstract and mathematical, so that people like Tegmark and Wheeler started > to speculate that the mathematics *is* the physics. Lists like this that > subscribe to everythingism Bruno's "comp" and Tegmark's MUH completely > erase the boundary between math and physics. The 3+ centuries of > reductionist physics are also 3+ centuries of explaining things through > synthesis of simpler (and presumably better understood) things. At the > same time I think mathematics is a human invention, a certain way of > looking at the world made precise in language. Humans and their inventions > are explicable by evolution, biology, physics,...and mathematics. So maybe > the circle closes. The usual objection of a circular explanation is it > leaves stuff out, especially if it leaves out all the stuff you understand > and just explains mystery X in terms of enigma Y. But if the circle is big > enough, if it encompasses everything, then either there's some part you > understand and that allows you to reach all the rest; or you don't > understand anything and there's no hope for you. > > > , not to mention what most people would regard as logic (or at least > common sense), this looks like a fairly radical revision of our theories of > knowledge. > > So I'd be interested to know more, if you're prepared to continue > explaining. > > > As I said, I don't have my own TOE. I just put forward the virtuous > circle of explanation based on a suggestion of Bruno (which he's disavowed) >
Because I think he never saw it as a circle, it is IMHO this: maths => physics => consciousness => human maths There is not circularity here... human maths is only a part of the total mathematical reality, what we discover about it... but that doesn't circle back ISTM. Quentin > as a counter example to the idea that reductionism must either bottom out > or be like infinite Russian dolls. > > Brent > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
