2014-07-12 22:01 GMT+02:00 John Mikes <[email protected]>: > Quentin, I appreciate your sequencing: > "*maths => physics => consciousness => human maths"* > except for the obvious question that arose in my (agnostic) mind: > what OTHER "maths" can we, humans think of with our (human) minds that > would not qualify as "human maths"? >
When I said human maths, I wanted to say Maths human discovered so far... (and maths we can discover) > Even - as I believe - Bruno leaves the question open and assigns such to > his unidentified (universal?) machines WITHOUT atempting to verify, > 'understand' or 'explain' those marvels. The most is: 'which MAY BE true > (or not). > > > On Sat, Jul 12, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Quentin Anciaux <[email protected]> > wrote: > >> >> >> >> 2014-07-12 21:17 GMT+02:00 meekerdb <[email protected]>: >> >> On 7/12/2014 1:23 AM, LizR wrote: >>> >>> Brent, >>> >>> You left me hanging a week or so ago, and never got back to me about >>> something I'm interested in finding out more about. >>> >>> On 2 July 2014 23:14, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2 July 2014 17:06, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 7/1/2014 9:42 PM, LizR wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 2 July 2014 15:46, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> OK, so how does that work? Like I said, I don't understand it. >>>>>> Intuitively, saying that A causes B and B causes A doesn't appear to make >>>>>> sense, >>>>>> >>>>>> It's not a causal relationship, it's an explanatory "->". >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Sorry I should have said "explains" although I thought it was >>>>> obvious I was using causal in an explanatory sense, not a physical one. >>>>> Anyway, please continue the explanation. >>>>> >>>>> You don't understand what is meant by "physics -> biology" or >>>>> "biology -> evolution -> mathematics" or "mathematics -> physics"? >>>>> >>>>> Yes I do. >>>> >>>> And there you stopped. I'm still waiting for you to continue the >>> explanation. >>> >>> To refresh your memory, you said: >>> >>> OK, except I think the chain is: >>>> arithmetic -> information -> matter -> consciousness -> arithmetic >>> >>> >>> To which I objected that I couldn't see how this makes sense globally, >>> even if each local step makes sense. You appear to be claiming that there >>> is no such thing as a fundamental explanatory level. Since this flies in >>> the face of 3+ centuries of scientific progress (based on reductionism, >>> which assumes there *is* a fundamental explanatory level) >>> >>> >>> It's just that I noted that fundamental physics has become almost >>> entirely abstract and mathematical, so that people like Tegmark and Wheeler >>> started to speculate that the mathematics *is* the physics. Lists like >>> this that subscribe to everythingism Bruno's "comp" and Tegmark's MUH >>> completely erase the boundary between math and physics. The 3+ centuries >>> of reductionist physics are also 3+ centuries of explaining things through >>> synthesis of simpler (and presumably better understood) things. At the >>> same time I think mathematics is a human invention, a certain way of >>> looking at the world made precise in language. Humans and their inventions >>> are explicable by evolution, biology, physics,...and mathematics. So maybe >>> the circle closes. The usual objection of a circular explanation is it >>> leaves stuff out, especially if it leaves out all the stuff you understand >>> and just explains mystery X in terms of enigma Y. But if the circle is big >>> enough, if it encompasses everything, then either there's some part you >>> understand and that allows you to reach all the rest; or you don't >>> understand anything and there's no hope for you. >>> >>> >>> , not to mention what most people would regard as logic (or at least >>> common sense), this looks like a fairly radical revision of our theories of >>> knowledge. >>> >>> So I'd be interested to know more, if you're prepared to continue >>> explaining. >>> >>> >>> As I said, I don't have my own TOE. I just put forward the virtuous >>> circle of explanation based on a suggestion of Bruno (which he's disavowed) >>> >> >> Because I think he never saw it as a circle, it is IMHO this: >> >> maths => physics => consciousness => human maths >> >> There is not circularity here... human maths is only a part of the total >> mathematical reality, what we discover about it... but that doesn't circle >> back ISTM. >> >> Quentin >> >> >>> as a counter example to the idea that reductionism must either bottom >>> out or be like infinite Russian dolls. >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy >> Batty/Rutger Hauer) >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
