On 21 Aug 2014, at 19:40, meekerdb wrote:
On 8/21/2014 1:03 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 21 Aug 2014, at 01:45, meekerdb wrote:
On 8/20/2014 2:20 PM, John Mikes wrote:
Brent: why should "spiders" (etc.) be 'not conscious'?
I think they are, in a way. But if I were pitching the idea of
uploading someone's mother into a virtual reality and warranting
that said virtual mother would be conscious, I don't think I'd
mention that the concept of "conscious" was elastic enough to
include spiders.
BTW what is your take on "conscious"? I have no idea myself,
because I consider "everything" an 'observer' that tackles info
about anything - and
the brainfunction(?) invoked by many for conscious processes
lacks the connection in our present scintific catasters
(measurements?) to topical contents (distinctions).
When I have to speak about 'consciousness' I have a different
meaning in mind from 'being conscious' (an
elusive term).
Ccness means in my vocabulary the 'response to relations'. A
process.
I tried to distinguish that, which I called "awarness" from "self-
awarness". Maybe I should lay out my idea of these levels of
consciousness, not claiming they have some metaphysical
significance, just terminology:
awareness: JM's response to relations. This is very low level,
like my thermostat is aware of the temperature because it has a
specific response to it in service of a goal.
self-awareness: Having an interior mental model in which self is
represented alongside other 3p elements of the model, i.e. my koi
know where they are in the pond.
consciousness: Creating a narrative account of events for memory
and calling up those memories in developing "responses to
relations".
self-consciousness: Reflective awareness of consciousness, i.e.
attributing thought and intention to the 3p model of one's self.
Dunno if those are useful, but they seem to me to be a kind of
hierarchy of consciousness that is more descriptive and finer than
Bruno's "any universal Turing machine".
Are you kidding me or what?
We have the raw consciousness for *all* universal machine, yes,
then we nhave self-consciousness for the Löbian machines, which are
much more than universal machine, then we have the 8 internal
views, and all the refinement between belief, knowledge,
observation, feeling, all being themselves nuanced by the G and G*
separation, and all this in a testable (and tested ) way, thanks to
the observation part.
But, as I understand it, those computational based categories make
no distinction between the jumping spider (what do you have against
web spiders?) the dog and me in terms of consciousness.
Yes.
(there are no evidences that web spiders induce a world independent of
them. There are such evidence for the jumping spider, which arise
probably for their complex hunting technic. They have a bigger brain,
also, and display more competence and changes of competence according
to different situations.
We all have feelings, knoweldge, make observations. But I think
there are other qualitative differences as I said above.
That difference is taking into account in the machine rational
"believability", symbolized by the modal "box", and which is
representable in the brain in a 3p way, unlike the []p & p, which
cannot be represented, but will also admit qualitative difference,
according to the "memories" contained in the "[]" part. I agree,
consciousness admits infinities of qualitative differences.
Bruno
Brent
Then the differences which remain are the difference between the
particular "[]" (PA, ZF, you, me, ...).
The difference between consciousness and awareness is a bit 1004 in
this thread.
Bruno
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