> On 10-Oct-2014, at 3:21 am, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > > Samiya, I did not participate in the sequence about your wisdom on the list, > because you did not refer to my question: WHAT, WHEN, and HOW did it occur > that you first thought of the existence of God? (I suggested tha it was your > Mummy and at your age as a baby when you were taught to pray, giving you the > overtone of your thinking. Later on you may have expanded into the wisdom > your father was studting.)
I tried to answer, to which you've referred to above. Beyond that, even I don't know. I suppose I was always blessed with faith, and life experiences and the wondrous world of scientific discovery only served to increase the faith and make me value the blessing of faith and scripture! > I am not a Bible-scholar, consider the > > Jewish Bible a compendium of earlier tales from (mostly mid-eastern) people - > then the > Christian Bible a second tier leaving out things and adding Jesus-related > stories, (attached some modifications from reform-thinking), while > > some hundred years after Jesus the Prophet Mohammad presented the Quran as > the work of Allah. We believe, as we have been informed in the Quran, that Prophet Mohammad was not given a new religion. Rather, it is a continuation and repetition of the same message which was sent throughout the ages through many messengers to all nations. Prophet Mohammed is unique in that he is the last in the series of messengers and the Quran revealed through him is a message of warning and good tidings for all humans and djinns. Therefore, it's divinely preserved in its original language and therefore it is important that we study it diligently. Scriptures are revealed for our information and guidance. If I may quote an example from the Quran, the purpose of scriptures is that they be studied: Holy Quran 62:5 ------------------ مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ حُمِّلُوا التَّوْرَاةَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَحْمِلُوهَا كَمَثَلِ الْحِمَارِ يَحْمِلُ أَسْفَارًا ۚ بِئْسَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ 'The example of those who were entrusted with the Torah and then did not take it on is like that of a donkey who carries volumes [of books]. Wretched is the example of the people who deny the signs of Allah. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.' > > We are not capable of thinking otherwise than in our human logic PLUS > restricted to our 'knowledge-base' we (to date) accumulated and believe. > Teleology - the AIM of the World - is beyond that. > What I believe in my gnostic thinking is a "WORLD" of infinite complexity of > which we got only limited glimpses - even those not correctly understood. Of > this 'treasure' of "knowledge" we THINK we know the World. Well, we don't. > We don't know what is good, or bad, what (so far) unknowable factors do > influence whatever happens in addition to those we (think) we know. If there > is a 'Godly' teleology, our human logic asks: Why did a 'Creator' not create > it as it is to be finally, but that would go into your prohibition of > questioning God. I disagree with Brent's "random" - I deny the concept at all > - changes are all deterministic whether we know the details, or not. > I don't repeat the chorus: who created the Creator? (Again a point way beyond > our mental capabilities). > Human science works on theories - explanations of the unexplained - axioms - > necessary conditions for the theories to work - and consequences - reduced to > the level of the up-to-date functioning of our mental capablity. > Evidence is in the eye of the beholder. > > I find it remarkable that your Quran-quote extendes to geography discovered > way after (into?) Hedzhra also the cosmology formulated during the recent > times and chemistry of the last 100 years (ozon?) - maybe they are included > only in the paraphernalia. If I may quote again three verses from Chapter 41: Holy Quran 41:3 ------------------ كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ A Book whose verses have been detailed, an Arabic Qur'an for a people who know, Holy Quran 41:4 ------------------ بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا فَأَعْرَضَ أَكْثَرُهُمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُونَ As a giver of good tidings and a warner; but most of them turn away, so they do not hear. Holy Quran 41:53 ------------------ سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ وَفِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ حَتَّىٰ يَتَبَيَّنَ لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ ۗ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ أَنَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness? > I would love to read about the other animals as well including > non-terrestrials. > > Have a good time, and forgive my interruption > > John Mikes > Thanks for writing. Samiya > > > > > > > >> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 11:35 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> What is your position on teleology? Do you think that there is a cause or >> purpose for everything? >> Also, what do you think of this: >> http://signsandscience.blogspot.com/2014/08/teleology-purpose-built-universe.html >> >> >> Samiya >> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 7:30 AM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> On 10/8/2014 5:07 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 2:50 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> On 10/8/2014 10:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> On 07 Oct 2014, at 20:17, meekerdb wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 10/7/2014 1:17 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 06 Oct 2014, at 20:15, meekerdb wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Here's an interesting interview of a philosopher who is interested in >>>>>>>>> the question of whether God exists. The interesting thing about it, >>>>>>>>> for this list, is that "God" is implicitly the god of theism, and is >>>>>>>>> not "one's reason for existence" or "the unprovable truths of >>>>>>>>> arithmetic". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How do you know that? How could you know that. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I read the interview. For example >>>>>>> >>>>>>> D.G.: I’m not a believer, so I’m not in a position to say. First of >>>>>>> all, it’s worth noting that some of the biggest empirical challenges >>>>>>> don’t come from science but from common features of life. Perhaps the >>>>>>> hardest case for believers is the Problem of Evil: The question of how >>>>>>> a benevolent God could allow the existence of evil in the world, both >>>>>>> natural evils like devastating earthquakes and human evils like the >>>>>>> Holocaust, has always been a great challenge to faith in God. There is, >>>>>>> of course, a long history of responses to that problem that goes back >>>>>>> to Job. While nonbelievers (like me) consider this a major problem, >>>>>>> believers have, for the most part, figured out how to accommodate >>>>>>> themselves to it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's obvious that Garber is talking about the god of theism. If he >>>>>>> were referring to some abstract principle or set of unprovable truths >>>>>>> there would be no "problem of evil" for that god. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On the contrary, computationalism will relate qualia like pain and evil >>>>>> related things with what numbers can endure in a fist person perspective >>>>>> yet understand that this enduring is ineffable and hard to justify and >>>>>> be confronted with that very problem. >>>>> >>>>> But under computationlism it's not a problem. The is no presumption that >>>>> a computable world is morally good by human standards. >>>> >>>> Under computationalism, all possible worlds and all possible observers >>>> exist and there's nothing God can do about it. God can no more make >>>> certain observers or observations not exist than make 2 + 2 = 3. However, >>>> a benevolent theistic god under computationalism (with access to unlimited >>>> computing resources) could nonetheless "save" beings who existed in other >>>> worlds by continuing the computation of their minds. >>> >>> You say "could" as though he had a choice, meaning He's not part of the >>> computable world and is not one of the "all possible observers". Seems to >>> me that he will have to both save everyone and also torture everyone in >>> hell. >>> >>> Brent >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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