On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:55 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On 10 Oct 2014, at 05:40, Samiya Illias wrote: > > > > On 10-Oct-2014, at 3:21 am, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > > Samiya, I did not participate in the sequence about your wisdom on the > list, because you did not refer to my question: WHAT, WHEN, and HOW did it > occur that you first thought of the existence of God? (I suggested tha it > was your Mummy and at your age as a baby when you were taught to pray, > giving you the overtone of your thinking. Later on you may have expanded > into the wisdom your father was studting.) > > > I tried to answer, to which you've referred to above. Beyond that, even I > don't know. I suppose I was always blessed with faith, and life experiences > and the wondrous world of scientific discovery only served to increase the > faith and make me value the blessing of faith and scripture! > > I am not a Bible-scholar, consider the > > Jewish Bible a compendium of earlier tales from (mostly mid-eastern) > people - then the > Christian Bible a second tier leaving out things and adding Jesus-related > stories, (attached some modifications from reform-thinking), while > > some hundred years after Jesus the Prophet Mohammad presented the Quran as > the work of Allah. > > > We believe, as we have been informed in the Quran, that Prophet Mohammad > was not given a new religion. Rather, it is a continuation and repetition > of the same message which was sent throughout the ages through many > messengers to all nations. Prophet Mohammed is unique in that he is the > last in the series of messengers and the Quran revealed through him is a > message of warning and good tidings for all humans and djinns. Therefore, > it's divinely preserved in its original language and therefore it is > important that we study it diligently. > > > > Mohammad was a man. All man can fail, he is not a god. You can't be sure > it was always listening well, or even understanding him. My reading of the > Quran makes me doubt he was under the same inspiration. The text is > historical, and not easy to understand, translate or interpret. It is a > witnessing of many part of the old bible, and the gospels, but it remains a > text, which can only scratch the surface. > Consider the following verses of Chapter 75:16-19 Stir not thy tongue herewith to hasten it. Lo! upon Us (resteth) the putting together thereof and the reading thereof. And when We read it, follow thou the reading; Then lo! upon Us (resteth) the explanation thereof. We believe the arabic Quran was inspired, preserved, transmitted and protected from changes or alterations under the command of God. It was not a human act by Prophet Muhammad. He received and conveyed the message verbatim. Yes, as I had mentioned in my last post, just above your comment here, the message revealed was not new. It was a continuation of the message sent through all prophets over the ages. So, of course, there is similarity of content. If I can be of any help in your reading of the Quran, please don't hesitate to ask. > > > > > > Scriptures are revealed for our information and guidance. If I may quote > an example from the Quran, the purpose of scriptures is that they be > studied: > Holy Quran 62:5 > ------------------ > مَثَلُ الَّذِينَ حُمِّلُوا التَّوْرَاةَ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَحْمِلُوهَا كَمَثَلِ > الْحِمَارِ يَحْمِلُ أَسْفَارًا ۚ بِئْسَ مَثَلُ الْقَوْمِ الَّذِينَ > كَذَّبُوا بِآيَاتِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَاللَّهُ لَا يَهْدِي الْقَوْمَ الظَّالِمِينَ > > 'The example of those who were entrusted with the Torah and then did not > take it on is like that of a donkey who carries volumes [of books]. > Wretched is the example of the people who deny the signs of Allah. And > Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.' > > > We are not capable of thinking otherwise than in our human logic PLUS > restricted to our 'knowledge-base' we (to date) accumulated and believe. > Teleology - the AIM of the World - is beyond that. > What I believe in my gnostic thinking is a "WORLD" of infinite complexity > of which we got only limited glimpses - even those not correctly > understood. Of this 'treasure' of "knowledge" we THINK we know the World. > Well, we don't. > We don't know what is good, or bad, what (so far) unknowable factors do > influence whatever happens in addition to those we (think) we know. If > there is a 'Godly' teleology, our human logic asks: Why did a 'Creator' > not create it as it is to be finally, but that would go into your > prohibition of questioning God. I disagree with Brent's "random" - I deny > the concept at all - changes are all deterministic whether we know the > details, or not. > I don't repeat the chorus: who created the Creator? (Again a point way > beyond our mental capabilities). > Human science works on theories - explanations of the unexplained - axioms > - necessary conditions for the theories to work - and consequences - > reduced to the level of the up-to-date functioning of our mental capablity. > Evidence is in the eye of the beholder. > > I find it remarkable that your Quran-quote extendes to geography > discovered way after (into?) Hedzhra also the cosmology formulated during > the recent times and chemistry of the last 100 years (ozon?) - maybe they > are included only in the paraphernalia. > > > If I may quote again three verses from Chapter 41: > Holy Quran 41:3 > ------------------ > كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ > > A Book whose verses have been detailed, an Arabic Qur'an for a people who > know, > > Holy Quran 41:4 > ------------------ > بَشِيرًا وَنَذِيرًا فَأَعْرَضَ أَكْثَرُهُمْ فَهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُونَ > > As a giver of good tidings and a warner; but most of them turn away, so > they do not hear. > > > But Allah will handle that situation all by IT/HIM/HERself, he does not > give to some humans the right to handle that in his name. > > That would be the given of a right of authoritative argument, and all the > fight. > > Only bad faith use authoritative argument. > How does this verse lead you to ask the above two sentences? I agree with your first sentence that Allah will handle, but I do not understand the next two statements. Samiya > > > > Holy Quran 41:53 > ------------------ > سَنُرِيهِمْ آيَاتِنَا فِي الْآفَاقِ وَفِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ حَتَّىٰ يَتَبَيَّنَ > لَهُمْ أَنَّهُ الْحَقُّ ۗ أَوَلَمْ يَكْفِ بِرَبِّكَ أَنَّهُ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ > شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ > > We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it > becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient > concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness? > > > I can agree with that! > > Bruno > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
