On 13 November 2014 00:15, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote:
> LizR wrote: > > On 11 November 2014 14:48, Bruce Kellett <[email protected] >> <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: >> >> >> The AoT exists regardless of such processes. >> >> I don't see how. The expansion made a state with no AOT turn >> into one that had one, by cooling the plasma to the point where >> a phase transition could occur. >> >> >> No, we have gone as far as we can on this -- and you are wrong. >> >> I would appreciate a short, simple explanation of why. >> > > First, the expansion does not increase any entropy limit. > Why not? Informally, from a quantum viewpoint it makes more states available, in a manner similar to Max Tegmartk's calculation of how far away one's duplicate is in a level 1 multiverse. The analogy used by Paul Davies is that if you have a gas at equilibrium inside a container and expand the container, the gas will stop being at equilibrium in the new configuration. It has more states available, and hence its entropy ceiling has been raised. This seems to me a valid argument. Where has Davies (and Tegmark) gone wrnog? > > Second, we get the thermodynamic AoT without expansion. > > In standard BB cosmology, the expansion cools the initial very hot state. > But it is not necessary to start with a hot BB to get an AoT. We could > image some different mechanism of cosmogenesis whereby the initial state > was a relatively thin cool gruel of hydrogen and a few other bits. > Something like in the current model when the universe is a few million > years old. Imagine it started in that state, but with no further expansion. > We would still get gravitational collapse around local inhomogeneities, > galaxies and stars would form. Planets and occasionally life would arise. > All within a thermodynamic AoT. In other words, we could get to exactly > where we are no without any expansion at all. So expansion cannot be a > necessary prerequisite for an AoT. > You're invoking graviation to create the AOT. I am explicitly trying to explain the AOT without invoking gravitation - obviously the universe has to be smooth, this is what else can occur on top of that. Also, the presence of hydrogen in the above is unexplained, but you need something like atoms for the 2nd law to operate. It doesn't operate inside a q-g plasma at equilibrium at several trillion degrees, for example. Hence you need to create those little bundles of negative entropy, so to speak, before you have something on which the statistics of the 2nd law can operate. > > You have to beware of making contingent facts into apparent logical > necessities. > > I will resist making any similarly patronising and irrelevant comments. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
