On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 1:26 AM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *John Clark > *Sent:* Thursday, December 18, 2014 10:57 PM > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: I signed up to be cryogenically frozen > > > > On Thu, Dec 18, 2014 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Water expands when it freezes; > > > > Yes. > > > Until a method of preserving the exquisite micro (and possibly also > nano-scale) structures of the brain are developed freezing an organ > destroys it. > > > > Freezing will certainly destroy the functionality of my brain no doubt > about it, but there is a far more important question, will it scramble the > information on how the atoms in my brain were arranged before it was frozen > so profoundly that even advanced nanotechnology can't recover it? Even > functionality has been preserved in the case of human embryos frozen in > liquid nitrogen and they contain millions of cells; granted that still > vastly smaller than a human brain but still it gives some reason for > optimism. > > > > Okay… perhaps some incredibly advanced technology that could scan the > thousands of trillions of broken and also moved (during the process of > becoming embedded in the matrix of shard like ice crystals that will > randomize what had been an ordered system.) elements without causing them > to heat up and lose their cryogenic state as a result of the scanning > process. Perhaps some kind of reverse of additive manufacturing could shave > away your preserved head nano layer by nano layer and go on to process the > next nano layer before it lost the ordering preserved in the cryogenic > matrix. But this is not anything that is on the horizon. > > >
This technology already exists. There is automated serial sectioning of frozen brains which takes high resolution images of each slice, enough to map out the connections between each neuron. I don't know of the connectome alone is sufficient to resinstantiate John Clark, but it is at least enough to reinstantiate nematodes. See project Atlum at Harvard: http://cbs.fas.harvard.edu/science/connectome-project/atlum Jason > > > > Certain species can freeze and thaw back out and be fine, but they have > evolved blood containing anti-freeze in it > > > > And Alcor will infuse my brain with a cocktail of anti-freeze agents, the > same sort of agents that are used to protect human embryos from minus 320 > degree temperatures, except that Alcor will use much higher concentrations > so my brain will not freeze but will undergo a glass transition process and > vitrify. > > > > Interesting. How long will it take for the blood to become mostly replaced > by the solution containing the cocktail of anti-freeze agents? During this > time and as a result of this infusion process will the end of life snapshot > of the information state of your brain sustain irreversible damage? I agree > with your position that it is this information picture that you should seek > to preserve if a shot at immortality (or at least a re-awakening from the > death) is what you desire. The actual brain and everything in it is toast > (and will have been poisoned by the chemicals preserving its information > structure)… but it is also, not what is fundamentally important to > preserve. > > > > > > > (which is highly toxic to humans by the way). > > > > Yes when anti-freeze agents are used in high concentrations (as Alcor > does) they are highly toxic largely because they denature proteins, that is > to say they change the way the sequence of amino acids fold up to form the > protein, and the shape a protein folds up into determines how it functions. > However the sequence of amino acids does not change so although the protein > no longer works the information on what the shape the protein was in before > it was denatured was not destroyed. > > Agreed; if there exists a feasible pathway back to a reconstruction of the > information state on your brain at a molecular level, and a means exists to > encode, store, transfer, and write this information into some new vessel > (could be digital perhaps as well so highly virtualized).. then there is a > long shot chance that some incredibly advanced technology could reverse > engineer your end of life state of mind from the jumbled conditions it > would have been in. > > > I do not see how the trillions of ruptured cells (from the micro-shards > of ice) > > > > With cryoprotectants that shards of ice business isn't much a problem but > severe dehydration of cells is real and would totally destroy > functionality, but as I said resorting functionality to that frozen block > of protoplasm isn't my concern, preserving the information in it is. > > > constituting the resulting thawed mush of what once had been a > functioning system with trillions of parts can be put back together. > > > > First of all I'm not interested in what happens during thawing, I'm only > interested in what happens during freezing because I'm only interested in > preserving information. The key question is will my brain enter a turbulent > state when it is frozen or will the flow be laminar. If it's turbulent then > small changes in initial conditions will result in large changes in outcome > and I'm dead meat, even nanotechnology couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back > together again; but if it's laminar figuring out what things were like > before they were frozen would be pretty straightforward. > > > > Fluid flow stops being smoothly Laminar and starts to become chaotically > turbulent when a system has a Reynolds number between 2300 and 4000, > although you might get some non chaotic vortices if it is bigger than 30. > We can find the approximate Reynolds number by using the formula LDV/N. L > is the characteristic size we're interested in, we're interested in cells > so L is about 10^-6 meter. D is the density of water, 10^3 kilograms/cubic > meter. V is the velocity of the flow, during freezing it's probably less > than 10^-3 meters per second but let's be conservative, I'll give you 3 > orders of magnitude and call V 1 meter per second. N is the viscosity of > water, at room temperature N is 0.001 newton-second/meter^2, it would be > less than that when things get cold and even less when water is mixed with > glycerol as it is in cryonics but let's be conservative again and ignore > those factors. If you plug these numbers into the formula you get a > Reynolds number of about 1. 1 is a lot less than 2300 so it looks like any > mixing caused by freezing would probably be laminar not turbulent, so you > can still deduce the position where things are supposed to be. > > Interesting, I can see you have given this some thought. > > Actually to my mind the most serious obstacles to the success of my > program are not scientific at all, they are these: > > 1) Will my brain really be frozen soon after my death? > > 2) Will my brain remain frozen until the age of nanotechnology? > > Number 2 seems like a big one. I recall reading that this already happened > at one cryo facility during a blackout. > > > > 3) When it becomes possible to retrieve the information in my frozen brain > will anybody think I'm worth the trouble to actually do it? > > Or to what end will you be re-awakened… what if it for the sadistic > amusement of some Jupiter brain toddler with a bad attitude and love of > breaking its toys. > > Concerning that last one, I think it will either be impossible to do so or > cheap and easy to do so, the time when it will be possible but expensive to > revive me will be very short. I'm willing to concede that my value to a > Jupiter Brain will be almost zero, but my (perhaps hopelessly optimistic) > hope is that it is not precisely zero. Given a choice between no chance and > a slim chance I'll pick a slim chance every time. > > > > > In the case of John Clark's brain... he won't care that the information > encoded in his brain has just been destroyed by the process -- he paid 80 > grand for -- meant to preserve it... because he will have died (and won't > miss that 80 grand either I guess) > > > > If cryonics doesn't work I'll never have any regrets about doing it > because I'll never know it didn't work, and If it doesn't work I won't be > one bit deader than you will be who took a more conventional approach and > had your brain rot in the ground or be burned up in a furnace. > > Or to be disemboweled and fed to vultures – in order to be of some utility > to another species, after I no longer am in need of this transient vessel, > as is the practice amongst Tibetan Buddhists. > > -Chris > > John K Clark > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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