On Wednesday, February 4, 2015, Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote:
> I agree with John. If consciousness had no third-person observable > effects, it would be an epiphenomenon. And then there is no way to explain > why we're even having this discussion about consciousness. > On the contrary, if consciousness were an epiphenomenon that would explain why it evolved: it is a necessary side effect of intelligent behaviour, and was not developed as a separate, useless add-on. > If we build computers that discuss and question their own consciousness > and qualia I'd consider that proof enough that they are. The bigger > question, is what machines might be conscious yet unable to talk about, > reflect upon, or signal to us that they are in fact conscious? This > requires a theory of consciousness. > > Jason > > On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:07 PM, meekerdb <[email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: > >> On 2/3/2015 10:00 AM, John Clark wrote: >> >> >> On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 meekerdb <[email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>> wrote: >> >> >> If consciousness was just a lucky accident Evolution would >>>> ensure that it didn't exist for long. >>> >>> >>> > Only if it cost something to maintain consciousness >>> >> >> Not so. Mutations happen all the time and nearly all of them are >> harmful. In most animals If a mutation happens that renders it blind that >> will be a severe handicap and the animal will not live long enough to pass >> that mutated gene onto the next generation; but if it happens in a cave >> creature it's no handicap at all and so it will get into the next >> generation, the end result is that cave creatures are not only blind they >> don't even have eyes, and yet they survive just fine. >> >> >> But it is biologically costly to make and maintain eyes. >> >> In the same way if consciousness wasn't a byproduct of intelligence >> and instead was just something tacked on that didn't effect behavior (and >> of course renders the Turing Test ineffective) then a creature with a >> mutation that stopped the consciousness mechanism from working would >> survive just as well as one without the mutation. >> >> >> But maybe it was "tacked" on to integrate information processing from >> different independent modules, e.g. vision, language, touch,... which in >> different developmental path, say AI, might have been organized in a >> hierarchy or unified from the start. The latter might even be more >> efficient, but evolution can't go back and start over, it can only take >> small steps of improvement. >> >> Pretty soon nobody would be conscious, but I know for a fact that at >> least one is. So either Darwin was wrong or consciousness is a byproduct of >> intelligence. I don't think Darwin was wrong. >> >> >> So carbon atoms are conscious but silicon atoms are not. Well... I >>>> can't prove that's wrong but I really think it is. >>> >>> >>> > If you think atoms are conscious you're more mystic than Bruno. >>> >> >> You're the one who was talking about a special connection between >> carbon and consciousness not me. >> >> >> I said carbon based life-forms, not carbon atoms. I'm sure we both agree >> that intelligence and consciousness come from the organization of atoms. >> >> Brent >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','everything-list%[email protected]');> >> . >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','everything-list%[email protected]');> > . > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','[email protected]');>. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Stathis Papaioannou -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
