On 04 Feb 2015, at 02:52, meekerdb wrote:
On 2/3/2015 2:21 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Feb 3, 2015 at 1:40 PM, meekerdb <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 2/3/2015 11:13 AM, Jason Resch wrote:
I agree with John. If consciousness had no third-person observable
effects, it would be an epiphenomenon. And then there is no way to
explain why we're even having this discussion about consciousness.
I'm not arguing that it has no observable effects. JKC says it's
necessary for intelligence.
Perhaps it is impossible to avoid for human-level intelligence (and
probably lower levels of intelligence as well) I don't know but it
is at least plausible.
I'm arguing that might have been necessary for for the evolution of
intelligence starting from say fish. But that doesn't entail that
is necessary for any intelligent system.
If we build computers that discuss and question their own
consciousness and qualia I'd consider that proof enough that they
are.
But is that the standard of intelligence? JKC argues
intelligence=>consciousness. What if they discuss and question
their own consciousness, but say stupid things about it?
Then the "intelligence bar" for consciousness is low or perhaps
unrelated to intelligence. I think you can have consciousness
without intelligence, but it is more dubious whether you could have
human-level intelligence without consciousness.
The bigger question, is what machines might be conscious yet
unable to talk about, reflect upon, or signal to us that they are
in fact conscious? This requires a theory of consciousness.
Exactly. That is my concern. Suppose we build an autonomous Mars
Rover to do research. We give it learning ability, so it must
reflect on its experience and act intelligently. Have we made a
conscious being? Contrary to Bruno, I think there are kinds and
degrees of consciousness - just as there are kinds and degrees of
intelligence.
Well the question "is something conscious?" is binary, like "is
something alive?". However there is a great spectrum of possible
living entities, and a massive gulf that separates the simplest
life forms from the most complex life forms. I think the same is
true of consciousness. The mars rover might be conscious, but its
consciousness might be as simple as a bacterium's biology is
compared to a human's.
That seems inconsistent with being "binary", like "being alive".
First, being alive isn't "binary". Are viruses alive?
Yes.
Prions?
Yes.
Cigarettes?
Yes.
Secondly, why shouldn't there be degrees of consciousness all the
way from "My thermostat is aware of the temperature." to "Bruno's
aware of the unprovable truths of arithmetic."
That's almost going from much weaker than Turing Universal, to the
Lôbian consciousness of PA, which I think is as much conscious than
you and me. Indeed, we are PA, with superficial axioms so that we have
conversations.
Why should we count them as "binary"? Maybe there are beings whose
brains implement hypercomputation; wouldn't you expect them to have
qualitatively different consciousness, e.g. being aware of all
consequences of any finite axiom set.
Good question, and can we involve toward them?, like being saved by
some oracle when approaching near-death, or smoking salvia?. Well, the
arithmetical reality defined all those oracles, so: open and complex
problems.
Bruno
Brent
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