On 07 Apr 2015, at 04:51, Bruce Kellett wrote:
Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 06 Apr 2015, at 13:25, Bruce Kellett wrote:
You want a dynamic like in physics, a function from time to space,
but in computer science, and to understand the problem here, the
dynamics are given by function from N to "mind states".
You need to give magical ability to a turing machine so that she
can distinguish (by its consciousness, in a first person way) the
difference between a physical emulation, and an arithmetical
emulation. The physical will give rise to the right measure, but
not by magic, only because the physical is run by the sum on all
computations below its substitution level.
But all this is not needed to get the reversal in step seven. So I
guess again that you are OK with step seven and see that if a
primary physical universe exists and run the UD, then physics is
reduced to arithmetic (seen from inside). Do you see that.
I understand what you are claiming, but I do not agree with it. The
primary physical universe certainly exists,
Then computationalism is false. But what are your evidence for a
*primary* physical universe. That is an axiom by Aristotle, and I
believe animals are hard-wired to make some extrapolation here (for
not doubting the prey and the predators), but there are no scientific
evidence for a *primary* physical object.
and it is not running your UD! I think we might notice if it were.
I don't believe a physical universe could run a UD, but again, that
point is not relevant after the MGA.
I think that Russell is right when he suggested that even by step
seven your dovetailer has to be running in Platonia, not in a
physical embodiment. This has to do with the fact that the
dovetailer can never complete. It is running all possible programs
and most of these will never complete. So you never complete and get
back to running all the steps of early programs in the sequence. So
you do not compute all possible instantiations of a conscious moment
by any finite time in a physical universe. Or even in Platonia
because the idea of a completed infinity of computations makes no
sense.
Why do you think the universal dovetailer dovetails? For all i, j k,
the step phi_i(j)^k is obtained from a bijection between NxNxN and N.
The UD works a bit on the first execution, then a bit on the second
execution, and then comes back on the first, then the second, then the
third, and then come back to the first, etc.
In that way, the UD executes all computations, including all those who
never stop.
So no conscious moment, even in with a dovetailer in Platonia, can
ever be completely counterfactually correct, because there will
always be related sequences of states that never get to be computed
-- no completed infinities even in arithmetic.
Physics is not reduced to arithmetic seen from the inside because
arithmetic is never completed by the dovetailer or anything else and
there are no non-magical ways in which similar states that might
give rise to ordered physical laws can ever be be related.
The universal dovetailer dovetails.
You only ever get out of a model like this what you put in. You have
put in arithmetic, so that is what you get out. You will never get
physics this way.
I do get an embryo of a non trivial physics, by adding the classical
axioms/definition of knowledge, and I do provide the axiomatization of
the logic of the observable, and I do show that it gives a
quantization and a quantum logic, and I do compare it with QM's logic.
I even provide theorem provers for most of the logics involved.
Computationalism can be wrong, but that is the whole point of the
reasoning: we can test it (with some nuance, like assuming we are not
in a conspiratorial simulation, ...).
Bruno
Bruce
With occam, a believer in comp can already stop here, and work on
the measure problem.
But a phsysicalist can still conclude that there is a primary
unique universe, and that it can't run the UD, nor any significant
part.
The step 8 address this situation and shows precisely why invoking
a primary physical universe makes it magical, with neuron needing
prescience, and movie getting experiences, and indeed nothing
getting all experiences.
It is good news, as it suggest we might understand the origin of
the physical laws, from non physical things, the gluing properties
of universal numbers' dreams.
Bruno
Bruce
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