On 18 May 2015, at 18:46, John Clark wrote:
On Mon, May 18, 2015 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
>> Well then let's make this simple, just use your patented way to
make calculations without using matter or energy or any of the laws
of physics and tell me what the factors of 3*2^916773 +1 and 19249 ×
2^13018586 + 1 are.
> Opportunist fallacy.
Fallacy my ass! Science demands evidence, if somebody claims they
can cure cancer the claim is not enough, even a detailed description
of how they intend to cure cancer is not enough, they must actually
cure cancer. And so I don't want to hear any more about how you can
make a calculation without using matter or energy or any of the laws
of physics, I want you to actually do it. Just do it and you've won
the argument.
Straw man fallacy. Nobody can do a physical computation out of a
physical reality.
The question is not about doing a computation, but about the existence
of computation in the block-mind offred by the (sigma_1) arithmetical
reality, which provably emulates all computation, but obviously not in
a physical, or locally reproductible way. Indeed the physical will
emerge from those computations, "already there" in the block-mind or
block-computer science reality.
>>>> if you agree that 2+2=4, and if you use the standard
definition, then you can prove that a tiny part of the standard
model of arithmetic run all computations.
>>>> The word " run" involves changes in physical quantities like
position and time. And what sort of thing are you running these
calculations on?
>>> No: "run" is defined mathematically, without any reference to
physics.
>>Yes, so I guess you retract your previous comment and now realize
that you can't "run all computations" or run any computation at all
without making use of the physical.
> ?
!
>>>> The set of all true statements is contained within the set of
all statements, the trick is to separate the true from the false.
>>> We cannot separate them mechanically, but we can separate them
mathematically,
>> Wow that is wonderful news! Since you know how to separate truth
from falsehood mathematically you know if Goldbach conjecture is in
the set of all true statements or in the set of all false
statements and thus you have won the argument. Ah but by the way,
which is it?
> To separate mathematically does not mean to separate effectively.
"Effectively" means in such a manner as to achieve a desired result,
With CT, it means computably.
so if you desire to separate all true statements from all false
statements and can do it but not do it effectively then you can do
it but you can not do it. Do think maybe just maybe there might be
something a bit wrong with that?
Then you defend intuitionism, and we are out of computationalism. I
have explained that there is no possible effective way to separate the
code of total and strictly partial program, but to have Church thesis,
we need an enumeration of all (strictly or not) partial computable
functions, which will mix the total and strictly partial functions in
a non computable, non effective way. Actually, I gave you other
arguments, but you have never answered them, so I am not sure all this
is not, like in step 3, pure rhetorical hand waving.
In this case, you abandon the excluded middle principle, which is in
comp, by definition, as you need it to have the classical Church
thesis. Most theorems in theoretical computer science are not
constructive, like in the usual math, and in computer science many of
them are provably necessarily non constructive (unlike the usual math
where we don't know, in most case).
Bruno
John K Clark
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