On Thu, Jul 2, 2015 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Does "you" mean John Clark who is currently experiencing Helsinki, or > does "you" mean John Clark who remembers experiencing Helsinki? >
> We have agreed that they are the same person. NO, we most certainly have NOT agreed they are the same person! They are both John Clark but they do not refer to the same thing. If the personal pronoun "you" has the meaning commonly used in everyday life then "you" means the guys who remember being John Clark in Helsinki, and then "you" does indeed survive and obviously "you" will see Moscow AND "you" will see Washington; but if "you" means John Clark who is *currently* experiencing Helsinki then "you" will not survive and "you" will NOT see Washington and "you" will NOT see Moscow. I'm surprised I have to explain all this, I thought logicians were supposed to be good at this sort of thing. > > See above. Why read it again? Incoherence is not like a negative number, incoherence squared does not produce coherence. > >>> you are the guy, and will remain the guy, with that memory of your > time in Helsinki. So no ambiguity. > >> OK good that is not ambiguous and is clear as a bell, "you" are the > guys who remember being John Clark the Helsinki Man, and so "you" will > indeed survive. > > Good. > So given that definition of the personal pronoun that we both agree on, a logician would have to agree that "you" will see Moscow AND Washington. "You" will open two doors only from the perspective of an outsider. That is > not the first person perspective of John Clark, AHHHH! Bruno Marchal just said "you" means "the guy with that memory of your time in Helsinki" but now Bruno Marchal is changing the meaning of "you" to something else yet again, and nobody knows what that new meaning is, including Bruno Marchal. >>> 3) opening the door of a reconstitution box and see two cities at once? > >> 100% > > Then none of JCW nor JCM needs any means (phone, mobile) to communicate, > and you are pertending that duplicate brain get telepathic power, where > comp + the protocole makes this false. I'll be damned if I can see what telepathic power has to do with any of this. And the above beautifully illustrates why I keep saying that whatever the hell "comp" means it certainly doesn't mean computationalism. >>> Note that by definition of first person experience, "seeing two cities > at once" means literally being a person [blah blah] > >> STOP RIGHT THERE! If as Bruno Marchal just said "you" means the guys > who remember being John Clark the Helsinki Man then after the duplication > there is not "a person" who fits that description, there are "persons" who > fit that description . > > Exactly, so we have to look at both 1-diaries, and both contains "I see > only one door and one city behind" OK we need to do some heavy duty mathematics here. If "you" saw Moscow (and the guy who remembers being the Helsinki Man did see Moscow) and if "you" saw Washington (and the guy who remembers being the Helsinki Man did see Washington), then how many cities did "you" see? I think the answer is 2 because I'm pretty sure that 1+1=2, but difficult calculations should always be independently checked, so get out your calculator and see if that's what you get. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
