On 13 Aug 2015, at 13:15, Kim Jones wrote:
OK - so the inability to be sure if someone is an idiot is just as
fraught as trying to be sure that they are intelligent, I hear you
say.
I was saying that idiocy is easy to judge, but you can also deduce
impossible to assert (of oneself or some-else). But we can see, and
see from time to time, person behaving like idiots, even children!
"intelligence" is often used for flattery or vanity.
"idiot" is often use as an insult (usual with more vulgar synonyms).
But it is better to not encapsulate people with such terms. Sometimes
people believe it, making them into idiot in my "protagorean sense".
That will not help them.
It refers to character, and I think it is related to some amount of
attention from the parents, which get it from their parents, etc.
Sounds like the ideal situation doesn't it! Tends to suggest that
people rise only to the heights of their incompetence at
understanding whether they or others are intelligent or stupid! So
we are all stupid and the sand on the beach is intelligent. This is
becoming very Smullyan, this bit...
So if we adopt your simple criteria of the repetition of stupidities
as idiocy and the silence of the pebble as intelligence, it seems
the human race is suffering a terrible toll of redundancy. I hope
yours is in fact the correct definition because it means we can do
something about the problem of latency with respect to the evolution
of human consciousness. I mean - the idiots (if there be such)
really are holding us back. They are in all the top jobs.
They are more dishonest than idiots, I think, a bit like we can
suspect John Clark to be when reading some of its post (where we see
he got the point, but still deny it or mock it).
We might put dishonesty in idiocy. I don't know if this would be
useful. Robbing a bank does not really look like a mistake, even if it
makes money mistakenly representing work. That's a whole debate.
They cannot not be idiots so where does that leave us? Flexibility
and tolerance and reform are not supported by the mental software
idiots use throughout their lives.
But that is normal, given our long evolution. At least we have a big
cortex making us able to do reasoning and thought experiences ...
Insects are much more wired, but that does not make them necessarily
idiots. It take a lot of neurons and reflexive ability to be an idiot,
and the more we are intelligent, the bigger we can be idiot.
Intelligence and idiocy are not that much in opposition. They always
come together.
May be the human are the most idiot among the animals, as few animals
say so much stupidities for so long, believe in fairy tales, and cut
the head of those who don't, etc. But the human grandeur is that he
can be aware of this, and try to do something (which often aggravates
the case, as it is not easy).
Bruno
I actually wasn't thinking of John Clark when I started this thread.
It's amusing to me in the extreme that everyone thought that's what
I was doing! John isn't an idiot. He's just taking a long time to
understand. He'll get there. I love Bruno's patience with him.
Nobody here is an idiot.
Kim
On 13 Aug 2015, at 8:02 pm, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
On 12 Aug 2015, at 01:42, meekerdb wrote:
If you think you have a sure fire way to identify an idiot...it's
you.
It might be easy, for some class of beings. Perhaps, for the human,
a simple criteria is simply being adult, and for a computer, being
not yet programmed.
Idiocy reveals itself by, not the mistake, but by the more or less
systematic repetition of them, and the inability to change its
mind, despite evidences. Denying evidence is also a common symptom.
Then, obviously with the theory I gave, asserting one own
intelligence, or one own idiocy is a (local) symptom. Asserting one
own Intelligence/Idiocy can be replaced with asserting someone else
intelligence/idiocy. Saying that Einstein is intelligent is either
a cliché or a way to assert one's own intelligence.
In fact idolatry, and uncritical attitude with respect to the boss,
or anyone, even a God, is also a symptom of idiocy/cowardliness.
But there is no criteria for intelligence, except that with the
definition taken, keeping silence is a sort of local quasi-criteria
(making pebble intelligent, but why not as they rarely utters
stupidities).
Bruno
Brent
On 8/11/2015 4:06 PM, Kim Jones wrote:
On 11 Aug 2015, at 10:26 pm, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
No doubt that it would be interesting to look at.
Salvia has been called a cure of ... atheism (the non agnostic
one 'course). Not that it makes you believe in anything new, it
just shows reasons to doubt more, and to recognize we are more
ignorant that we would have been able to conceive before.
Bruno
Well, that’s it, surely. The Idiot Test administered in this way
has as a basic assumption that only what might be called The True
Public Idiot is by nature incapable of changing or modifying his
stated beliefs. A hallmark of idiocy is absolute certainty. In
this light, Richard Dawkins for example, qualifies pretty much as
a TPI.
The other thing about this possible theological definition of
‘idiocy’ is: you will never meet an idiot who thinks the test was
run fairly. This person has to accept that there is now an
institution-backed sanction against them due to someone ticking a
box marked ‘idiot’ next to their name. Still, they can justify
themselves by saying how ‘in the past’ they changed their mind
over certain matters when people whose opinions they could
respect convinced them otherwise. You might like to check this
assertion by interviewing his mother or sister instead.
You will never, therefore, catch a certified public idiot in the
act of changing his beliefs. This is because he has never changed
his beliefs in the past and will never in the future - not
because you are unlucky in the matter of catching him at it. The
ticking of the box marked ‘idiot’ is a truly serious business.
True (ie incorrigible) Public Idiots are actually quite rare.
Even David Icke had to kind of admit that he probably wasn’t the
reincarnation of JC…proving therefore that he was capable of
recognising the lie he was telling himself.
This leads to further refinements of the concept:
1. An idiot is one who lies about core matters - but only to
himself. Others long since realised he enjoys playing this game
with himself and that any other setup would entail him in ceasing
to enjoy the game.
2. ??
Please feel free to add your own refinement.
Kim
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