On 06 Sep 2015, at 02:52, Pierz wrote:
On Friday, September 4, 2015 at 1:35:50 AM UTC+10, Bruno Marchal
wrote:
On 02 Sep 2015, at 22:48, meekerdb wrote:
On 9/2/2015 8:25 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
So now you agree with me that there are different kinds and
degrees of consciousness; that it is not just a binary
attribute of an axiom + inference system.
?
Either you are conscious, or you are not.
But is a roundworm either conscious or not? an amoeba?
I don't know, but i think they are. Even bacteria, and perhaps
even some viruses, but on a different time scale than us.
If they can be conscious, but not self-conscious then there are
two kinds of "being conscious".
Yes, at least two kinds, but each arithmetical hypostases having
either "<>t" or "& p" describes a type of consciousness, I would
say.
And they all differentiate on the infinitely many version of
"[]A", be it the "[]" predicate of PA, ZF, an amoeba or you and
me ...
So if there are different kinds of consciousness then a being with
more kinds is more conscious. It seems that your dictum, "Your
either conscious or not." is being diluted away to mere slogan.
There are basically two levels, without criterion of decidability,
but with simple operational definition:
1) something is conscious if it is torturable, and arguably
ethically wrong of doing so. I think all invertebrates are already
at that level, and in arithmetic that might correspond to the
sigma_1 complete (Turing universality). Robinson Arithmetic, the
universal dovetailer, are at that level.
How does one torture arithmetic? Hold on, I was probably guilty of
that in school... Oh the guilt!
Like Alice who was beating time .... lol
But seriously, why torturable as the criteria? Isn't a conscious
being incapable of pain perfectly conceivable? (Like the woman I
heard of recently who is incapable of fear because her amygdala is
calcified. And there are people who can't feel physical pain. So
take away fear and pain and torture becomes rather difficult to
execute.)
You are right. I was giving a sufficient criterium. Not a necessary
one, as I think that does not exist. We can't even recognize if a
program compute the factorial function or not (Rice theorem, an easy
consequence of the second recursion of Kleene----I can come back on
this someday).
To torture an arithmetic, extend it consistently into a terrestrial
(or oceanic) creature, let it meet the humans ...
Bruno
2) something is self-conscious if it is Löbian, basically he is
aware of its unnameable name. PA, ZF, are "at that level", like all
their sound recursively enumerable extensions. At that level, the
entity is able to ascribe consciousness to another, and can get the
the moral understanding of good and wrong (with or without a
forbidden fruit).
But the content of the consciousness can be extremely variable, and
then there are many different types of consciousness states. By
incompleteness, machine's psychology is transfinitely rich. The
first person self is not a machine from the machine first person
perspective. Machines are naturally non computationalist, and the
origin of consciousness is plausibly more on the side of the truth
than on the representation.
Bruno
Brent
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