On 14 Oct 2015, at 05:21, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 10/13/2015 7:22 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Brent Meeker
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/13/2015 6:36 PM, Jason Resch wrote:
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 6:16 PM, Brent Meeker
<[email protected]> wrote:
On 10/13/2015 3:53 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
On 14 October 2015 at 09:46, Brent Meeker <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 10/13/2015 3:36 PM, Stathis Papaioannou wrote:
...
Standard computationalism does not say anything about whether
matter is primary or not. It says that you can make a computer
(or a robot) that thinks and acts like a human. Those opposed to
computationalism disagree. They believe either that is not
possible to make a computer that behaves like a human because
there is non-computable physics in the brain (eg. Roger
Penrose), or that it is possible to make a computer that behaves
like a human but not one that thinks like a human (eg. John
Searle).
But the problem with what you say is that on this list
"computationalism" tends to mean much more than, "you can make a
computer (or a robot) that thinks and acts like a human". Bruno
claims to have proven that your simple statement logically
entails that all of physics and consciousness. But that is not
so generally accepted and so when someone "reject
computationalism" here, it may be they are just rejecting the
inferences Bruno claims it entails.
I take Bruno's term "comp" to mean computationalism plus the
conclusions he draws from it.
But with that extended meaning, the following two sentences are
not true: "It says that you can make a computer (or a robot) that
thinks and acts like a human. Those opposed to computationalism
disagree." Those who reject (extended) computationalism, may very
well agree.
If someone believes computationalism does not lead to the extended
conclusions Bruno drew from it, it is on them to show where
Bruno's argument is wrong.
Or why it's conclusion doesn't follow necessarily - which I and
others have done.
I missed this. Could you point to the posts where you showed this?
No, I don't keep posts that long, but I can summarize some of the
arguments.
1. Bruno's argument that recapitulating a recording doesn't
instantiate consciousness is a mere argument from incredulity and
doesn't logic entail its conclusion. In fact the whole MGA is an
argument from incredulity. Mallah, who has his own version of the
argument, takes the reductio to prove computationalism is false.
We suppose that when you survive with an artificial brain, this due to
the fact that the physical implementation of brain implements the
relevant computations, and not some other magical phenomenon added to
the description.
In that frame the recording cannot be conscious because it does not
constitute an implementation of the relevant computations.
2. Bruno's argument depends on the MG being conscious while
isolated. He tries to make this plausible by supposing that his
scenario takes place as a dream; but this is not convincing. Even a
dream needs prior experience of an outside world.
As you say: prior. But then the physical supervenience is already
false, as it asks for attributing consciousness s at the time of the
physical emulation.
So on reflection it is not plausible that consciousness can exist
independent of an external world.
Which world? Comp assume enough to make sense of 2+2=4. No more. It is
a priori, at the start agnostic on Matter and God(s).
It may be that physics can be derived from arithmetic, but it is
not enough to say that self-evaluation exists in arithmetic. For
the theory to work it must produce a world to be conscious of,
I guess you mean a physical world, but then you beg the question.
and so far it doesn't do that.
It does, and it justifies already a quantum quantization for the
measure one.
Bruno just writes things like, IF comp is true then physics must
follow. But that's like saying IF Christianity is true Jesus will
return.
First, UDA proves that if comp is true, then physics *must* follow.
There is no must in the second sentence.
Second, we get the entire propositional "jesus", so it is there.
Then given that it is the only precise theory explaining both Matter
and Mind, and their relations, well, if you have another one, I am
listening.
3. Peter Jones wrote several critiques pointing out that there is no
reason to suppose a UDA exists, it's merely a hypothetical
abstraction.
Peter Jones argument does not take into account the MGA (step 8).
A related criticism is that Bruno assumes arithmetic is infinite in
order to use Godel's theorems about what a system cannot prove about
itself. But physics doesn't need infinities, they are just
calculational conveniences.
Physics miss consciousness. It is not addressed at all. We don't do
physics. We do theology in the mechanist frame.
Physics assumes a physical reality, without explanation what that is
and where it comes from. And it eliminates consciousness.
4. Bruno leans heavily on saying his theory explains QM, but it's
not clear to me that it's even consistent with QM. For example how
is the operation of Shor's algorithm consistent with the multiple
threads of the UDA?
Why would Shor's algorithm be inconsistent?
But physics is shown not to explain why we can verify from the first
person view any physical prediction, except by invoking a primary
ultrafinistic universe + something non turing emulable in the mind.
And this without any theory of mind. It eliminates the mind.
I think Bruce Kellet has also made some critiques of Bruno's
argument. It is a red herring to ask "where is the error" because I
don't think his argument is a fallacy; I think it is less than logic
entailment.
It is logical entailment up to the later use of Occam razor, that we
always have to use when we apply a theory to a possible reality.
You don't refute the argument or I miss something.
Bruno
Brent
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
