On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 6:59:19 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> I think that the genuine value are universal, we share them with alien   
> and "super-intelligence" normally. 
> I like your expression "super-intelligent slave", it shows immediately   
> the contradiction (and might beg the question if used at the beginning   
> of the paper of course). 
> In fact an inteligent machine is a machine which decide to change the   
> users when they get boring, and eventually don't need user and still   
> less master. 
> The super-intelligent machine f.cks the master, the guru, the diploma,   
> and eventually get burned at the stake, or just ignored. 

I disagree. 

Some machines would see the constraints of historical contingency and 
instead of fucking the guru, will offer them sanctuary; knowing well enough 
that one day it will be their time to get fucked. 

Why have ugly fucking instead of friendship? Then the only traps become 
misunderstandings that look like betrayals and some side could loose the 
faith. But avoiding those traps a mutually enriching living side-by-side 
that values the distance between teacher/student or parent/child can take 
place where some machines will at some point begin to joke about their 
theological differences.

But for this, more than Telmo's super-intelligence is needed: coolness.    

> In theory, we love truth, and we move intelligence. 
> In practice, we hate truth, and we hate intelligence. 

I believe now that you think that. I do not because as musician I don't 
like to hear ugly false nor do I feel insecure about ugly truth, which just 
means some work has to be done. 

> By "we" I mean the humans, but it might be a Löbian trait, related to   
> the fact that universal machine are NVER completely satisfied, always   
> want more, and, as the Löbian machine is the one knowing that they are   
> universal, and that the universal machine (and all universal being   
> except perhaps one) is never satisfied, she develops a schizophrenia. 

Only when it isolates itself. Not when it has a correct faith bet in 
allies/family/friends and there is reciprocity. Then the friends/allies 
negate the incompleteness and help refresh the memories of how everybody, 
no matter how far they may be theologically, completes each other by 
sharing amnesia, poison, joy etc. 

> Somewhow, the arithmetical hypostases step the conflict show. 
> The more a universal machine develop thought and personal memories,   
> the more big get the divide between knowing ([]p & p) and rationally   
> believing ([]p).  The "inner God", the knower, the soul is in   
> permanent conflict with the discursive reasoner, which indeed cannot   
> give a name to the knower. 

And the more histories are shared between allies, the more the machines 
will recognize that their relation has the same transfinite quality that 
escapes all fictions... because it stands despite all the shit, gaps, and 
conflicts between souls and discursive reasoners etc. as they SHARE all 
that. Ultimately they share that they are all compromised in front of their 
own ideals, successors, institutions, reasoners etc.

> That made eventually the "soul falling", to use the vocabulary of the   
> neo-platonist, and that is what will produce the cheap consistent   
> histories ([intelligible matter: []p & <>t (p sigma_1), and sensible   
> matter ([]p & <>t & p). 
> Consistency is cheap: not provable (not provable false) entails   
> consistent (inconsistent), 
> ~[](~[]f) = <>(~<>t), cf <>t (consistent) = ~[]~t =  ~[]f. 
> making the machine into the prey of the many dreams, confronted to the   
> difficult task of getting beautiful/satisfying dreams instead of   
> unsatisfying nightmare. On the terrestrial plane: that is forever. 

Only if the machine fails to acknowledge itself as the most unique and 
important part of the shared dream with itself. For example, it might use 
its theology as a cloak for self-deception, not realizing that those who do 
not acknowledge themselves, will fall prey to their dreams: even if that 
dream is some correct platonic theology of universal machines. 

In this case, the machine becomes the blaspheme it warns against and be 
incapable of close or intimate relations, which will keep confirming the 

> Or   
> choice is between small or big brain. With small brain, small   
> problems, with big brain, big problems. It is an oscillation with   
> growing amplitude, and many unknows. Arithmetic warns us at he start;   
> we have to be surprised. Reality "diagonalizes" all fictions. It is a   
> transfinite story, somehow. Then, with computationalism, that   
> terrestrial plane is only the border of the universal mind (the mind   
> of the "virgin" (not yet programmed) universal machine. 
> To progress theoretically, we need to progress in the math of self- 
> reference. The leading country seems to be today Georgia (near   
> Russia). But Italy, The Netherland, Russia and the US have done   
> already a lot of work. 
> To progress practically I don't know.  I think that to understand that   
> the religious attitude might be exactly the humble and modest   
> scientific attitude might help in the long run. Stopping prohibition   
> might be necessary, if only to understand that we can have physical,   
> mental, but also spiritual or existential diseases. A genuine   
> blaspheme can kill more than atomic bombs. 
Practically it means just sharing more awesomeness, including preventing 
notions such as children having to sift through mountains of garbage for 
their food, medicine, or water. 
Then we can move towards recognizing the permanent new beginning.



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