On 26 Apr 2017, at 20:54, PGC wrote:
On Wednesday, April 26, 2017 at 4:28:20 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 26 Apr 2017, at 00:19, Brent Meeker wrote:
>
>
> On 4/25/2017 1:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>> On 25 Apr 2017, at 01:13, Bruce Kellett wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/04/2017 6:07 pm, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2017 at 6:08 AM, Russell Standish
<[email protected]
>>>> > wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Apr 23, 2017 at 11:49:51AM +0200, Telmo Menezes wrote:
>>>>>> Ok, so you are rejecting computationalism. Computationalism is
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> hypothesis that our mind supervenes on computations (sorry
>>>>>> Bruno, it's
>>>>>> easier to write for the purpose of this discussion :). You are
>>>>>> declaring that mind supervene on the physical brain.
>>>>> That is not it at all. We've clarified with Bruno many times
that
>>>>> computational supervenience is compatible with physical
>>>>> supervenience. Which is just as well, as otherwise it would be
>>>>> so much
>>>>> the worse for computationalism.
>>>> I have no doubt that the brain is a physical computer, and that
>>>> computations performed by the brain are no different from any
other
>>>> computations.
>>>>
>>>> We are discussing physicalism and computationalism, and if they
are
>>>> compatible or not, correct?
>>>>
>>>> Bruce repeatedly makes variation of the claim: "look, the brain
is
>>>> physical and the brain generates consciousness, these are the
>>>> facts".
>>>> This is what I am replying to. It's an argument from authority
that
>>>> leaves no space for debate or reasoning.
>>>
>>> First, it is not an argument from authority, it is an argument
>>> made on the basis of all the available evidence -- consciousness
>>> supervenes on the physical brain.
>>>
>>> Second. An argument from authority is not necessarily a reason to
>>> reject that argument. Because life is short and we cannot be
>>> experts in absolutely everything, we frequently have to rely on
>>> authorities -- people who are recognized experts in the relevant
>>> field. I am confident that when I drive across this bridge it will
>>> not collapse under the weight of my car because I trust the
>>> expertise of the engineers who designed and constructed the
>>> bridge. In other words, I rely on the relevant authorities for my
>>> conclusion that this bridge is safe. An argument from authority is
>>> unsound only if the quoted authorities are themselves not reliable
>>> -- they are not experts in the relevant field, and/or their
>>> supposed qualifications are bogus. There are many examples of this
>>> -- like relying on President Trump's assessment of anthropogenic
>>> global warming, etc, etc.
>>>
>>> Third, since it is now clear that the term "physicalism" refers to
>>> the belief in primary matter, I have never ascribed to
>>> "physicalism".
>>
>> Usually I use "Weak materialism" for the "assumption/belief" in
>> primary matter. primary means "in need to be assumed"; Something is
>> "primary" if to get its existence we need to assume it, or
>> something equivalent. For example, we know since the failure of
>> logicism that numbers are primary. We cannot derive them from
logic.
>
> But we can - and did - derive them from observation and manipulation
> of objects. Numbers came from measuring the size of sheepherds, the
> steps from one place to another,... You learned them that way at
> your mother's knee.
I was using "derivation" in the logical or mathematical sense. Size of
sheepherds can be used for illustration, but if you think we can
derive numbers from sheep, show me a theory of sheepherds not using
numbers, and then a logical derivation of number existence from that.
Show us how it is impossible for a herd of sheep or some of their
descendants to learn to define numbers from Van Neumann ordinals say.
Why would be that impossible. Comp makes that possible. But I was
using derivation in the logical sense.
Bruno
Maybe they already have and are the real silent mystics. Absurd? Go
live with some sheep for a few years (without counting or using
numbers) and report your findings to the computationalist
authorities. If comp, then those sheep are universal and just need
some time, patience, and for someone to give them a chance instead
of abusing them for their wool or as zombies for some internet
discussion. Those sheep have hearts too. PGC
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