On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 2:12:51 AM UTC, [email protected] wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 1:53:42 AM UTC, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 6/11/2018 6:26 PM, [email protected] wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 10:57:59 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 6/11/2018 3:22 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>> >>>>> I am not sure this make sense (with the SWE). The cat is always >>>>> isolated, in some sense. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> * IMO totally wrong. In fact now you're contradicting what you wrote in >>>> a recent post. The cat is NEVER ISOLATED, VIRTUALLY BY DEFINITION OF WHAT >>>> MACRO MEANS. NEVER ISOLATED IMPLIES NEVER IN A SUPERPOSITION. AG * >>>> >>> >>> * In the real world the cat is never isolated, nor can it be isolated >>> insofar as it consists of a huge number of particles already entangled with >>> its environment. This is the meaning of "macro" ! If you insist on >>> imagining it as isolated for your thought experiment, you will generate a >>> paradox, as Schroedinger did. AG* >>> >>> >>> Schroedinger obviously chose a cat to emphasize the absurdity, but it >>> also makes the analysis hard to think about. Not only is the cat >>> macroscopic, the atomic decay is distributed over a continuum. I think it >>> helps to think of a simpler experiment in which the atom is just in a box >>> which is lined with photographic plates. So the atom is in a superposition >>> of undecayed and decayed and interacted with a silver halide atom. It is >>> clear that it is the interaction with the silver halide atom that gets >>> amplified to a macroscopic dot of silver which decoheres the system in >>> orthogonal "worlds" in which the spot is in different places and happens at >>> different times. >>> >>> Brent >>> >> >> *I don't see how a single silver halide atom is amplified to a >> macroscopic dot of silver. * >> >> >> That's because you don't bother to look up anything. You expect other >> people to look it up for you and then explain it to you. Here's Wikipedia, >> but I'm not explaining it. >> > > *The original SINGLE atom in your example is not amplified, as I > suspected. More important, you ducked the main issue IMO. AG * >
*You know, if you're referring to a chemical reaction that converts some silver halide atoms into specks of silver, there's no particular mystery. This, however, is not the same as something micro become macro (which is how I read your comment). In any event, I fail to see how macro systems which cannot be isolated, and thus cannot be prepared in a superposition, can be represented mathematically in a superposition of states, which is the starting point for decoherence. AG* > > *photographic paper, including graphic art film and paper, where silver >> halide crystals in gelatin are coated on to a film base, glass or paper >> substrate. The gelatin is a vital part of the emulsion as the protective >> colloid of appropriate physical and chemical properties. Gelatin may also >> contain trace elements (such as sulfur) which increase the light >> sensitivity of the emulsion, although modern practice uses gelatin without >> such components. When absorbed by an AgX crystal, photons cause electrons >> to be promoted to a conduction band (de-localized electron orbital with >> higher energy than a valence band) which can be attracted by a sensitivity >> speck, which is a shallow electron trap, which may be a crystalline defect >> or a cluster of silver sulfide, gold, other trace elements (dopant), or >> combination thereof, and then combined with an interstitial silver ion to >> form silver metal speck.[1]* >> >> >> >> *When a silver halide crystal is exposed to light, a sensitivity speck on >> the surface of the crystal is turned into a small speck of metallic silver >> (these comprise the invisible or latent image). If the speck of silver >> contains approximately four or more atoms, it is rendered developable - >> meaning that it can undergo development which turns the entire crystal into >> metallic silver. *Brent >> >> *Going back to my analysis, I think I have shown the fallacy of using a >> macro entities in a superposition (since they can never be isolated). But >> this is the starting point of decoherence theory, as exemplified by the wf >> Bruce recently presented for a spin 1/2 measurement (where the apparatus, >> observer and remaining environment appear in the superposition). AG* >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
