On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 5:50:56 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, August 5, 2018 at 4:43:21 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 4 Aug 2018, at 23:32, agrays...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> AFAIK, no one has ever observed a probability wave, from which I conclude 
>> the wave function has only epistemic content.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then you need to explain how that epistemic content interfere in nature. 
>> Your idea might make sense, and indeed if we believe in a collapse (as you 
>> have to do if you believe in QM and that the superposition does not apply 
>> to us) the idea that consciousness collapse the wave is perhaps the less 
>> ridiculous idea. That idea has indeed be defended by von Neumann, Wigner, 
>> and some others. But has been shown to lead to many difficulties when taken 
>> seriously by Abner Shimony, as well guessed by Wigner itself. Obviously 
>> that idea would be inconsistent with Mechanism.
>>
>
> *Easy to show that consciousness doesn't collapse the wf. Just do repeated 
> trials and don't look at the screen until the experiment is finished. I 
> forget; what is mechanism? AG *
>
>>
>> There is no probability waves.
>>
>


*IIUC, the wf has the mathematical form of a wave, of which the amplitude 
is part of. AG *

> There is only an amplitude of probability wave, and the weirdness is that 
>> we have strong indirect evidence that the amplitude of that wave is as 
>> physically real as the particles that we can observe, because the particle 
>> location is determined by that wave having interfered like wave usually do. 
>> In particular, even if send one by one, the particles will never been found 
>> where the wave interfere destructively, and the pattern on the screen will 
>> reflect the number of holes, and their disposition. 
>>
>
*The fact that the wf gives information about the constructive and 
destructive inference pattern on the screen, say, is within the meaning of 
having an epistemic property. If you want to claim it has ontic property, 
you need to define what that means. AG *

>
>> It is OK to say that probability comes from ignorance, and that the wave 
>> describe that ignorance, the extraordinary thing is then that  this 
>> ignorance interfere independently of you.
>>
>> So I have embraced the "shut up and calculate" interpretation of the wave 
>> function.
>>
>> That can be wise. Nobody can enforce the search of the truth. It is 
>> frustrating because we can’t be sure if we progress toward it or the 
>> contrary, and it is shocking because truth always beat fictions.
>>
>> I also see a connection between the True Believers of the MWI, and Trump 
>> sycophants; they seem immune to simple facts, such as the foolishness of 
>> thinking copies of observers can occur, or be created, willy-nilly. AG
>>
>> That remark deserves your point and diminish your credibility. It also 
>> suggests that you are a “True Believer” in something.
>>
>> Assuming Mechanism in cognitive science, you don’t need quantum mechanics 
>> to understand that there are infinitely many relative computational states 
>> corresponding to you here and now emulated by infinitely many universal 
>> machines. Even without mechanism this is a theorem of arithmetic using only 
>> Church thesis. With mechanism, we have to derive the “guessable wave" from 
>> a statistics on those computations, and so we can test Mechanism if it 
>> leads to more, or less extravaganza than Nature. It fits up to now. So with 
>> Mechanism, we get the *appearance* of many interfering “worlds”, and this 
>> without any worlds, from just the natural numbers and the laws of addition 
>> and multiplication. I will show that with the combinators as it is much 
>> shorter (but still long) than showing this with the numbers. This is known 
>> by logicians since the 1930s (I mean that a universal Turing machine is an 
>> arithmetical object). Computationalism, or Indexical Digital Mechanism 
>> imposes a Many-Dreams internal interpretation of Arithmetic (or combinator 
>> theory, or game-of-life theory, … we have to assume only one universal 
>> machinery).
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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