On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:19:40 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 20 Aug 2018, at 10:29, [email protected] <javascript:> wrote: > > > > On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 8:21:06 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 19 Aug 2018, at 12:21, [email protected] wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, August 19, 2018 at 9:51:56 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>> >>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 19:34, [email protected] wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 9:08:31 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> On 16 Aug 2018, at 22:37, [email protected] wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 6:45:25 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8/16/2018 3:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>> >>>>> You seem to reintroduce implicitly some collapse in the picture. >>>>> That’s my feeling, as this is not clear. When measuring a spin: there are >>>>> two possible values *for all possible direction of the spin*. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> For all possible directions of the spin *measurement*. There is >>>>> nothing about Alice or Bob that makes all directions *possible* >>>>> except in the classical sense of "possible". >>>>> >>>>> That makes infinitely many worlds. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But you have elsewhere renounced the view that everything possible >>>>> happens. >>>>> >>>> >>>> *He's affirming the error that's at the root of the MW nonsense; >>>> namely, everything that's possible to happen, must happen. AG * >>>> >>>> >>>> With *different* relative probabilities, given by the square of the >>>> amplitude, (in QM) and by the material mode in the theology of the >>>> machine. >>>> Yes, the physical “knowledge” is always purely statistical, in both QM and >>>> Mechanism. >>>> >>> >>> *Do you understand English? Your reply is inapposite to my comment. AG * >>> >>> >>> “Affirming the error” is ambiguous. >>> >> >> *I just meant that your application or interpretation of QM assumes that >> every outcome that is possible, must be realized, or measured, or observed. >> I don't see any basis (reason) for making this assumption. If you have one, >> which can be stated without appeal to arithmetic, I'd like to see it >> argued. AG * >> >> >> It is dictated by the wave equation (or Heisenberg Matrix). The worlds >> are (notably) the relative state defined by the branch of the >> superposition, and we cannot throw them away. That is so true that the >> founders of QM invented the notion of an observer collapsing the wave to >> select the outcome they saw, but that addition violates the SWE. That is >> reasonable FAPP, but it presupposes that the observer does NOT obey the >> SWE, and this introduce a dubious dualism (incompatible with Mechanism, >> among other absurdities, like FTL, etc.). >> > > *IMO, this is an inadequate justification for assuming that every > eigenvalue that can be measured, that is possible to be measured, must be > measured. * > > > The whole point of the MW is that a measurement is explained as a > classical mechanical events, or a thermodynamical event which has to be > locally irreversible so as to memorisable. > > > > > *There is nothing in the SWE that requires this. Further, as you have be > informed many times here, there is no requirement that collapse must be > caused by a human observer.* > > > No collapse = MW (except for the guiding wave theory which is as much MW > than Everett, as Bell argued once, but with added particles so as to > select one history among many). > > > > > > * Feynman showed by a simple argument that this is unnecessary. Just let > an instrument record the outcomes. AG* > > > > That is exactly my point. Measurement (in the mechanical sense of Feynman > and Everett) are usually done by the environment itself, which is not > recordable, and so we lost the ability to get back the interference (we > cannot erase a memory than we cannot locate and isolate). >
*I think your comment illustrates the basic fallacy of your theory. You think memory is a necessary condition for measurements to occur.They occur independent memory, just like the multitude of events which undoubtedly occur without any witnesses. The memory, in the case of Feynman's thought experiment replacing a human observer with a detector, just serves to validate or confirm that it did in fact occur, AFTER THE FACT, and with interference. AG* > > Feynman formulation of QM exemplifies this. It is rather typically without > collapse. The collapse has been invented to avoid QM being applied to us, > so that we can still believe that we and our universe are unique. But then > the SWE does no more work universally, and we need some dualist theory of > mind, like Penrose proposed (rather unconvincingly). > > Measurement = interaction +memory, like in the mechanist theory of mind. > > > Bruno > > > > >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>> Same for an electronic orbital. There are as many world that the >>>>> possible position of the electron in the orbitals. Are you OK with this? >>>>> I >>>>> try to figure out what is your interpretation of the SWE. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] <javascript:>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <javascript:>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
