> On 20 Aug 2018, at 21:54, [email protected] wrote: > > > > On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:19:40 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 20 Aug 2018, at 10:29, [email protected] <javascript:> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 8:21:06 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 19 Aug 2018, at 12:21, [email protected] <> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sunday, August 19, 2018 at 9:51:56 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 19:34, [email protected] <> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 9:08:31 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 16 Aug 2018, at 22:37, [email protected] <> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 6:45:25 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 8/16/2018 3:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>>>>> You seem to reintroduce implicitly some collapse in the picture. That’s >>>>>> my feeling, as this is not clear. When measuring a spin: there are two >>>>>> possible values *for all possible direction of the spin*. >>>>> >>>>> For all possible directions of the spin measurement. There is nothing >>>>> about Alice or Bob that makes all directions possible except in the >>>>> classical sense of "possible". >>>>> >>>>>> That makes infinitely many worlds. >>>>> >>>>> But you have elsewhere renounced the view that everything possible >>>>> happens. >>>>> >>>>> He's affirming the error that's at the root of the MW nonsense; namely, >>>>> everything that's possible to happen, must happen. AG >>>> >>>> With *different* relative probabilities, given by the square of the >>>> amplitude, (in QM) and by the material mode in the theology of the >>>> machine. Yes, the physical “knowledge” is always purely statistical, in >>>> both QM and Mechanism. >>>> >>>> Do you understand English? Your reply is inapposite to my comment. AG >>> >>> “Affirming the error” is ambiguous. >>> >>> I just meant that your application or interpretation of QM assumes that >>> every outcome that is possible, must be realized, or measured, or observed. >>> I don't see any basis (reason) for making this assumption. If you have one, >>> which can be stated without appeal to arithmetic, I'd like to see it >>> argued. AG >> >> It is dictated by the wave equation (or Heisenberg Matrix). The worlds are >> (notably) the relative state defined by the branch of the superposition, and >> we cannot throw them away. That is so true that the founders of QM invented >> the notion of an observer collapsing the wave to select the outcome they >> saw, but that addition violates the SWE. That is reasonable FAPP, but it >> presupposes that the observer does NOT obey the SWE, and this introduce a >> dubious dualism (incompatible with Mechanism, among other absurdities, like >> FTL, etc.). >> >> IMO, this is an inadequate justification for assuming that every eigenvalue >> that can be measured, that is possible to be measured, must be measured. > > The whole point of the MW is that a measurement is explained as a classical > mechanical events, or a thermodynamical event which has to be locally > irreversible so as to memorisable. > > > > >> There is nothing in the SWE that requires this. Further, as you have be >> informed many times here, there is no requirement that collapse must be >> caused by a human observer. > > No collapse = MW (except for the guiding wave theory which is as much MW than > Everett, as Bell argued once, but with added particles so as to select one > history among many). > > > > >> Feynman showed by a simple argument that this is unnecessary. Just let an >> instrument record the outcomes. AG > > > That is exactly my point. Measurement (in the mechanical sense of Feynman and > Everett) are usually done by the environment itself, which is not recordable, > and so we lost the ability to get back the interference (we cannot erase a > memory than we cannot locate and isolate). > > I think your comment illustrates the basic fallacy of your theory. You think > memory is a necessary condition for measurements to occur.
Not at all. I told you that measurement = interaction. Memory is needed just to repeat a measurement and share the results with others. Memory is not needed for measurement to occur, but only to be … well, memorised and part of a living experience/life. Even if just one photon interact with the dead+alive cat, the wave looks like collapsed to me, despite the absence of any real physical collapse, and me noticing nothing (and thus not doing the measurement myself). > They occur independent memory, just like the multitude of events which > undoubtedly occur without any witnesses. Sure. > The memory, in the case of Feynman's thought experiment replacing a human > observer with a detector, just serves to validate or confirm that it did in > fact occur, AFTER THE FACT, and with interference. AG No problem. Bruno > > Feynman formulation of QM exemplifies this. It is rather typically without > collapse. The collapse has been invented to avoid QM being applied to us, so > that we can still believe that we and our universe are unique. But then the > SWE does no more work universally, and we need some dualist theory of mind, > like Penrose proposed (rather unconvincingly). > > Measurement = interaction +memory, like in the mechanist theory of mind. > > > Bruno > > > >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>>>> Same for an electronic orbital. There are as many world that the >>>>>> possible position of the electron in the orbitals. Are you OK with >>>>>> this? I try to figure out what is your interpretation of the SWE. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected] <>. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] <>. >>>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected] <>. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] <>. >>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >>>> <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected] <>. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] <>. >>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >>> <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected] <javascript:>. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected] >> <javascript:>. >> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list >> <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout >> <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
