> On 20 Aug 2018, at 21:54, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 1:19:40 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 20 Aug 2018, at 10:29, agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Monday, August 20, 2018 at 8:21:06 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 19 Aug 2018, at 12:21, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sunday, August 19, 2018 at 9:51:56 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 17 Aug 2018, at 19:34, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Friday, August 17, 2018 at 9:08:31 AM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On 16 Aug 2018, at 22:37, agrays...@gmail.com <> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 6:45:25 PM UTC, Brent wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> On 8/16/2018 3:05 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>>> You seem to reintroduce implicitly some collapse in the picture. That’s 
>>>>>> my feeling, as this is not clear. When measuring a spin: there are two 
>>>>>> possible values *for all possible direction of the spin*.
>>>>> 
>>>>> For all possible directions of the spin measurement.  There is nothing 
>>>>> about Alice or Bob that makes all directions possible except in the 
>>>>> classical sense of "possible".
>>>>> 
>>>>>> That makes infinitely many worlds.
>>>>> 
>>>>> But you have elsewhere renounced the view that everything possible 
>>>>> happens.
>>>>> 
>>>>> He's affirming the error that's at the root of the MW nonsense; namely, 
>>>>> everything that's possible to happen, must happen. AG 
>>>> 
>>>> With *different* relative probabilities, given by the square of the 
>>>> amplitude, (in QM) and by the material mode in the theology of the 
>>>> machine. Yes, the physical “knowledge” is always purely statistical, in 
>>>> both QM and Mechanism.
>>>> 
>>>> Do you understand English? Your reply is inapposite to my comment. AG 
>>> 
>>> “Affirming the error” is ambiguous. 
>>> 
>>> I just meant that your application or interpretation of QM assumes that 
>>> every outcome that is possible, must be realized, or measured, or observed. 
>>> I don't see any basis (reason) for making this assumption. If you have one, 
>>> which can be stated without appeal to arithmetic, I'd like to see it 
>>> argued. AG 
>> 
>> It is dictated by the wave equation (or Heisenberg Matrix). The worlds are 
>> (notably) the relative state defined by the branch of the superposition, and 
>> we cannot throw them away. That is so true that the founders of QM invented 
>> the notion of an observer collapsing the wave to select the outcome they 
>> saw, but that addition violates the SWE. That is reasonable FAPP, but it 
>> presupposes that the observer does NOT obey the SWE, and this introduce a 
>> dubious dualism (incompatible with Mechanism, among other absurdities, like 
>> FTL, etc.).
>> 
>> IMO, this is an inadequate justification for assuming that every eigenvalue 
>> that can be measured, that is possible to be measured, must be measured.
> 
> The whole point of the MW is that a measurement is explained as a classical 
> mechanical events, or a thermodynamical event which has to be locally 
> irreversible so as to memorisable. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> There is nothing in the SWE that requires this. Further, as you have be 
>> informed many times here, there is no requirement that collapse must be 
>> caused by a human observer.
> 
> No collapse = MW (except for the guiding wave theory which is as much MW than 
> Everett, as Bell argued once, but  with added particles so as to select one 
> history among many).
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> Feynman showed by a simple argument that this is unnecessary. Just let an 
>> instrument record the outcomes. AG
> 
> 
> That is exactly my point. Measurement (in the mechanical sense of Feynman and 
> Everett) are usually done by the environment itself, which is not recordable, 
> and so we lost the ability to get back the interference (we cannot erase a 
> memory than we cannot locate and isolate).
> 
> I think your comment illustrates the basic fallacy of your theory. You think 
> memory is a necessary condition for measurements to occur.

Not at all. I told you that measurement = interaction. Memory is needed just to 
repeat a measurement and share the results with others.
Memory is not needed for measurement to occur, but only to be … well, memorised 
and part of a living experience/life.

Even if just one photon interact with the dead+alive cat, the wave looks like 
collapsed to me, despite the absence of any real physical collapse, and me 
noticing nothing (and thus not doing the measurement myself).




> They occur independent memory, just like the multitude of events which 
> undoubtedly occur without any witnesses.

Sure.



> The memory, in the case of Feynman's thought experiment replacing a human 
> observer with a detector, just serves to validate or confirm that it did in 
> fact occur, AFTER THE FACT, and with interference. AG

No problem.

Bruno




> 
> Feynman formulation of QM exemplifies this. It is rather typically without 
> collapse. The collapse has been invented to avoid QM being applied to us, so 
> that we can still believe that we and our universe are unique. But then the 
> SWE does no more work universally, and we need some dualist theory of mind, 
> like Penrose proposed (rather unconvincingly). 
> 
> Measurement = interaction +memory, like in the mechanist theory of mind.
> 
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> 
>>  
>> Bruno 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> Bruno
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Bruno
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Brent
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Same for an electronic orbital. There are as many world that the 
>>>>>> possible position of the  electron in the orbitals. Are you OK with 
>>>>>> this? I try to figure out what is your interpretation of the SWE.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
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