> On 19 Nov 2018, at 21:50, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, November 19, 2018 at 4:54:47 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 16 Nov 2018, at 19:55, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Friday, November 16, 2018 at 11:05:51 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 15 Nov 2018, at 18:13, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thursday, November 15, 2018 at 5:15:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On 13 Nov 2018, at 11:06, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On Monday, November 12, 2018 at 8:35:23 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> A model is a model of a theory. The notion of model of a model can make 
>>>> sense, by considering non axiomatisable theory, but that can lead to 
>>>> confusion, so it is better to avoid this. When a model is seen as a 
>>>> theory, if it contains arithmetic, the theory cannot be axiomatised, 
>>>> proofs cannot be checked, the set of theorems is not recursively 
>>>> enumerable, etc.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Bruno
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> This is why some have mathematical theories (alternatives to ZF) that have 
>>>> finite (i.e. Only a finite number of numbers needed!) models (e.g. Jan 
>>>> Mycielski, "Locally Finite Theories" [https://www.jstor.org/stable/2273942 
>>>> <https://www.jstor.org/stable/2273942> ]). In this approach quantifiers 
>>>> are effectively replaced by typed quantifiers, where the type says "this 
>>>> quantifier ranges over some finite set".  
>>>> 
>>>> Another approach is to nominalize physical theories theories (Hartry 
>>>> Field, Science Without Numbers, summary [ 
>>>> http://www.nyu.edu/projects/dorr/teaching/objectivity/Handout.5.10.pdf 
>>>> <http://www.nyu.edu/projects/dorr/teaching/objectivity/Handout.5.10.pdf> 
>>>> ]). In this approach the model of the theory is a finite set of 
>>>> (references to) physical objects.
>>>> 
>>>> This is the best point-of-view to have: The set of natural numbers simply 
>>>> doesn't exist!
>>> 
>>> 
>>> I agree. It is actually a consequence of mechanism. The set of natural 
>>> numbers does not exist, nor any infinite set. But that does not make a 
>>> physical universe into something existing. Analysis, physics, sets, … 
>>> belongs to the numbers “dreams” (a highly structured set, which has no 
>>> ontology, but a rich and complex phenomenological accounts). 
>>> 
>>> I gave my axioms (Arithmetic, or Kxy = x, Sxyz = xz(yz)). As you can see, 
>>> there is no axiom of infinity.
>>> 
>>> Bruno
>>> 
>>> PS Sorry for the delay.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The "highest" programming may be higher-type (or higher-order) programming:
>>> 
>>> http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/introduction-to-higher-order-computation-NLS-2017.pdf
>>>  
>>> <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/introduction-to-higher-order-computation-NLS-2017.pdf>
>>> examples @ http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/ <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "Higher-order [programming involves] infinite objects, such as infinite 
>>> strings, real numbers, and even functions themselves, etc. [which 
>>> themselves] are computable. And, more importantly, how to compute them. In 
>>> practice, computation with infinite objects often takes place in languages 
>>> such as ML, Haskell, Agda etc. In theory, some canonical systems are 
>>> Godel’s system T, Platek-Scott-Plotkin PCF, Martin-Lof’s dependent type 
>>> theory, among many others. But how can we (or a computer) compute with 
>>> infinite objects, given that we have a finite amount of time and a finite 
>>> amount of memory and a finite amount of any resource? Topology comes to the 
>>> rescue [revolving] around the [finite vs. infinite dichotomy], mediated by 
>>> topology. We can say that topology is precisely about the relation between 
>>> finiteness and infiniteness that is relevant to computation."
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> But there is a new biochemical programming language:
>>> 
>>> CRN++: Molecular Programming Language
>>> (Submitted on 19 Sep 2018)
>>> https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.07430 <https://arxiv.org/abs/1809.07430> 
>>> "We present its syntax and semantics, and build a compiler translating 
>>> CRN++ programs into chemical reactions...laying the foundation of a 
>>> comprehensive framework for molecular programming."
>>> 
>>> A programming language whose purpose is to create bugs!
>>> 
>>> So the question becomes: Is bioprogramming > programming? (if biomatter has 
>>> experiential qualities in addition to informational quantities)
>> 
>> Assuming some primary matter, and some non mechanist theory, why not. That 
>> seems to quite speculative, though, and adding difficulties to a subject 
>> which is already difficult when assuming the “simplifying” assumption of 
>> Mechanism. With mechanism, the mind-body problem reduced into justifying the 
>> existence of a canonical measure on all computations “seen from inside” 
>> (which admits a number of modes, imposed by incompleteness). In case the 
>> physics in the head of the universal machine/number departs from 
>> observation, we get the mean to make sense of some non-mechanism, and this 
>> might show you right. So let us continue the testing/comparison.
>> 
>> What do you think your biomatter do which would be non Turing emulable, nor 
>> “first person measurable(*) and in what sense would that be relevant with 
>> respect of consciousness?
>> 
>> I have no doubt chemical computation is a wonderful subject, but with 
>> “Indexical Digital Mechanism”, the theology and the physics is independent 
>> of the language and the basic theories as far as they are Turing 
>> complete(*), the physical appearance, needs to be justified in term of a 
>> relative measure state/computations "seen from inside” (Incompleteness makes 
>> the usual standard definition getting sense in those “enough rich” Turing 
>> complete(**) theories. 
>> 
>> Bruno
>> 
>> 
>> (*) This provides some “free oracle”, like the random oracle and the halting 
>> oracle, due to the limiting behaviour of the first person indeterminacy).
>> 
>> (**) Turing complete means that for all p sigma_1 (shape ExA(x, y), A 
>> decidable) we have, with “[]” Gödel’s arithmetical provability predicate,
>> 
>>                    p -> []p
>> 
>> is true. 
>> 
>> Löbian (sufficiently rich) means that for all such p,"p -> []p" is not only 
>> true, but provable. Put it in another way, this means that
>> 
>>                    [](p -> []p)
>> 
>> is true. (This makes the machine obeying to G and G* and their intensional 
>> variants).
>> 
>> (See all definitions in the second part of sane04, I recall them in most of 
>> my papers).
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> What do you think your biomatter do which would be non Turing emulable, nor 
>> “first person measurable(*) and in what sense would that be relevant with 
>> respect of consciousness?
>> 
>> One analogy I came up with (will see how this goes): Think of a Turing 
>> computing that doesn't manipulate (only) symbols (information, or numbers), 
>> but manipulates (also) emojis [ https://emojipedia.org/ 
>> <https://emojipedia.org/> ]! Now emojis themselves are symbols of course, 
>> but suppose that they "embody" real elements of experience that are 
>> ontologically separate from information (or numbers).
>> 
>> (One could call this e-Turing computing non-Turing or not, depending on 
>> whether how one defines unconventional computing.)
> 
> Hmm… The emojis would be pointer to expérience. That would be just a coding, 
> if we assume computationalism, or an oracle, perhaps, or something unknown … 
> just to claim that the brain is not digitalis able? 
> This seems to me only to make things more complex, and if the things invoked 
> through the emoji needs to be material, it looks like an artificial trick 
> “just” to save a metaphysical option. Personally, I could do that the day I 
> have more empirical evidence for matter or for non-mechanism.
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> I wrote this short Note:
> 
>      EMP: Effective Matter Programming
>      
> https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2018/11/19/emp-effective-matter-programming/
> 
>    
> "Matter compilers receive their raw materials from the Feed, a system 
> analogous to the electrical grid of modern society. The Feed carries streams 
> of both energy and basic molecules <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molecules>, 
> which are rapidly assembled into usable goods by matter compilers."
> - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Diamond_Age
> 
> 
> From usable goods to sensitive robots? 

Matter plays a fundamental role in sensibility, but that is a theorem in 
Mechanism, and that “matter” is phenomenological. It does not exist in the base 
ontology. Or f it does, then how could it play a non mechanist role? 
No problem with rejecting computationalism, if you want matter or other god to 
play a role, but why not testing this before complicating the cognitive science 
for … what?

Bruno





> 
> - pt
> 
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