On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 5:20:22 PM UTC-6, [email protected]
wrote:
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 8:04:11 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:53:50 PM UTC-6, [email protected]
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:30:32 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:02:52 PM UTC-6, [email protected]
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 6:44:34 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 12:32:51 PM UTC-6,
>>>>>> [email protected] wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> * As for physicists being materialists in the sense of believing
>>>>>>> there is nothing underlying matter as its cause, I have never heard
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> position articulated by any physicist, in person or on the Internet. AG
>>>>>>> *
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Victor Stenger
>>>>>> *Materialism Deconstructed?*
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/materialism-deconstructed_b_2228362.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *I was once a member of Vic's discussion group. Vic believed in the
>>>>> reality of matter, in the sense that if you kick it, it kicks back. But
>>>>> he
>>>>> didn't deny the possibility that there could be something more
>>>>> fundamental
>>>>> underlying matter. This denial is what Bruno claims is the materialist
>>>>> position, but it surely wasn't Vic's position. You know this, of course,
>>>>> being a member of that group. Right? AG*
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - pt
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I hosted Vic in Dallas in 2014 for a talk. I got to know him fairly
>>>> personally .
>>>>
>>>> Homages to philosophical materialism ("matter is the fundamental
>>>> substance in nature") is in his books. *Timeless Reality* in
>>>> particular.
>>>>
>>>> One can be open-minded, or *ironist *in Rorty's definition [
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironism ], and he was that.
>>>>
>>>> But despite all the "models" talk, I would confidently say he was
>>>> always a hardcore materialist.
>>>>
>>>> - pt
>>>>
>>>
>>> Show me one instance, just one, where Vic denied something causal and
>>> unknown underlying the existence of matter? This is Bruno's model of
>>> materialism among physicists but it clearly doesn't apply to Vic. AG
>>>
>>
>>
>> When Vic refutes that materialism ("all there is is matter") has been
>> refuted (as Vic did in his essay), he is asserting all there is is matter.
>> There is no matter + some ghosts behind matter. He wanted to banish the
>> ghosts (the immaterial).
>>
>
> Apparently, you don't understand what the issue with materialism is. I
> already explained it. AG
>
>>
>> - pt
>>
>
I guess I don't know what the issue with *materialism* ("the notion that
only matter exists"*) is that you are referring to.
This I do know: To have an issue with (be opposed to) materialism is to
have a belief such as:
- Immaterialism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaterialism>, a
philosophy branching from George Berkeley of which his idealism is a type
- Dualism (philosophy of mind)
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dualism_(philosophy_of_mind)>, a
philosophy which includes the claim that mental phenomena are, in some
respects, non-physical
- Gnosticism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gnosticism>, a general class
of religious movements which hold that human beings have divine souls
trapped in a material world
- Idealism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idealism>, which holds that
the ultimate nature of reality is based on mind or ideas
- Maya (illusion) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)>, a
concept in various Indian religions regarding the dualism of the Universe
- Platonic realism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Platonic_realism>,
which holds that certain universals have a *real* existence, in the
sense of philosophical realism
- Supernaturalism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supernaturalism>
- Transcendentalism <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transcendentalism>, a
group of ideas involving an ideal spiritual state that 'transcends' the
physical and empirical realms
* [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antimaterialism ]
- pt
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