> On 12 Dec 2018, at 23:33, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:10 PM Jason Resch <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > > > Tell me why an electron is a thing and 3 is not. > > An electron can change in time and space, 3 can not change in either. > > >>Computations "exist" in the universe of numbers in the same way that the > >>Incredible Hulk "exists" in the universe of Marvel comics. > > >And the "universe of numbers that describe the coordinates of mathematical > >objects called elections and photons" ? > > I don't understand the question. > > > One of the few things we know for certain about consciousness is it > > involves change, but numbers never change in space or time; matter/energy > > is the only known thing that can change. > > > Between any two casually separated universes, there is no means of > > comparing time, mass, size, etc. > > If it's separated there is no means of proving it even exists. But it's even > worse than that, logically the number 3 can not change, if it did it would > not be a 3. It reminds me of an old joke: 3+3=7, for extremely large values > of 3. > > > That platonic computations seem static is only from your viewpoint. > > But I thought our subjective viewpoint was what you were trying to figure out > and our viewpoint is certainly not static. > > > For those beings whose minds are described by those computations, they > > would see a changing dynamic world around them. > > What would they see change? It can't be numbers, in arithmetic numbers are > replaced not changed, even after writing 3+3=6 the number 3 is still around > and doing just fine. If you know of something besides matter/energy that can > change I'd love to hear about it.
Very easy. The content of the relative memory of all observers implemented in arithmetic. Bruno > > >>I don't have proof but I have lots of examples of matter doing arithmetic > >>but nobody has an example of arithmetic doing matter. Matter/energy may or > >>may not be fundamental, but it's certainly more fundamental than > >>arithmetic. > > > This statement just shows you haven't read the papers. > > I read them until it got too silly to read more, and that didn't take long. > > >I am showing the inconsistency of the "Presentism" view, that what exists > >must constantly change in order for us to perceive change. > > The past must leave some sort of record of itself for the present to know it > existed, and to make a record something must change and numbers don't change, > as far as we know only matter and energy have the ability to change in space > and time. > > >>If it's not a change in experience with respect to time what is it with > >>respect to? The only alternative is a change in experience with respect to > >>space, but such a move would take time. > > > Change as we experience it is with respect to the self's indexical position > > and relation to previous and later states in some causal progression. > > Without matter/energy and thus without change how are these indexical marker > positions of yours recorded? If I'm in the integer 8 in the Fibonacci > sequence there is no way I could know that I was in the Fibonacci sequence or > in a sequence of any sort unless I remembered that my previous state was a 5 > and the one before that was a 3, but to form a memory something has to change > and 3, 5 and 8 never change. > > > Thus our brains perceive change despite being a part of what is > objectively a static object. The you from 5 minutes ago is still perceiving > the point in time 5 minutes ago. > > That requires a memory and that means something must have changed 5 minutes > ago that has persisted to now. And there is no way for pure numbers to do > that, but matter/energy can. > > John K Clark > > > > > > Jason > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
