On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:34 PM John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 12, 2018 at 4:10 PM Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: > > > *Tell me why an electron is a thing and 3 is not.* >> > > An electron can change in time and space, 3 can not change in either. > You are ruling out the block time view, which contradicts special relativity. > > >> >>Computations "exist" in the universe of numbers in the same way that >>> the Incredible Hulk "exists" in the universe of Marvel comics. >>> >> >> >*And the "universe of numbers that describe the coordinates of >> mathematical objects called elections and photons" ? * >> > > I don't understand the question. > What are particles but computations involving positional coordinates? Why do you believe in the computational effectiveness only of these mathematical objects? > > >> > One of the few things we know for certain about consciousness is it >>> involves change, but numbers never change in space or time; matter/energy >>> is the only known thing that can change. >>> >> >> *> Between any two casually separated universes, there is no means of >> comparing time, mass, size, etc. * >> > > If it's separated there is no means of proving it even exists. But it's > even worse than that, logically the number 3 can not change, if it did it > would not be a 3. It reminds me of an old joke: 3+3=7, for extremely large > values of 3. > Change is an illusion. > > >> > That platonic computations seem static is only from your viewpoint. >> > > But I thought our subjective viewpoint was what you were trying to figure > out and our viewpoint is certainly not static. > > >From the point of view within a computation, there is the appearance of change. Think of consecutively computed states in the Game of Life, for example. There is a single static equation (arithmetical truth) which defines the computation and full evolution of a given game of life universe. If a conscious entity existed in that game of life universe and had a memory it could perceive the progression of states. > *> For those beings whose minds are described by those computations, they >> would see a changing dynamic world around them.* >> > > What would they see change? It can't be numbers, in arithmetic numbers > are replaced not changed, even after writing 3+3=6 the number 3 is still > around and doing just fine. If you know of something besides matter/energy > that can change I'd love to hear about it. > > They observe changes between computation states. > >>I don't have proof but I have lots of examples of matter doing >>> arithmetic but nobody has an example of arithmetic doing matter. >>> Matter/energy may or may not be fundamental, but it's certainly more >>> fundamental than arithmetic. >>> >> >> > This statement just shows you haven't read the papers. >> > > I read them until it got too silly to read more, and that didn't take long. > What did you disagree with in Markus Muller's paper? > > *>I am showing the inconsistency of the "Presentism" view, that what >> exists must constantly change in order for us to perceive change.* >> > > The past must leave some sort of record of itself for the present to know > it existed, and to make a record something must change and numbers don't > change, as far as we know only matter and energy have the ability to change > in space and time. > The value of a variable in a computation may change from one computational step to the next. > > >> >>If it's not a change in experience with respect to time what is it >>> with respect to? The only alternative is a change in experience with >>> respect to space, but such a move would take time. >>> >> >> *> Change as we experience it is with respect to the self's indexical >> position and relation to previous and later states in some causal >> progression.* >> > > Without matter/energy and thus without change how are these indexical marker > positions of yours recorded? > By other variables in the equation. For example, consider the following Diophantine equation: Q(x1, x2, x3, x4, x5, ..., x20000) = 0 Which has solutions IFF: x1 = the ASCII encoding of a LISP program x2 = the serialization of the state of registers of an X86 architecture at time step = x3 x3 = the time step of the execution of the program in x1 x4 ... x20000 = the other terms of the equation necessary for the machine to work as described x3 provides a natural ordering of the sequential time steps of the clock of the CPU. The mathematical truth of the valid solutions to the equations yields the executions of every possible LISP program at every possible time step. Its solutions yields a fractal like structure within which you would see the execution traces of every program, and within the patterns of the registers in some of those solutions, you would see evolved life manifesting behaviors we would ascribe to conscious beings, such as writing books about consciousness, and talking over e-mail lists about consciousness. > If I'm in the integer 8 in the Fibonacci sequence there is no way I could > know that I was in the Fibonacci sequence or in a sequence of any sort > unless I remembered that my previous state was a 5 and the one before that > was a 3, but to form a memory something has to change and 3, 5 and 8 never > change. > No, but if you were something with a memory, like a structure within the game of life, you could build up a memory of the evolution of that game of life universe and be conscious of the change from one step to another. > > >> >* Thus our brains perceive change despite being a part of what is >> objectively a static object. The you from 5 minutes ago is still >> perceiving the point in time 5 minutes ago.* >> > > That requires a memory and that means something must have changed 5 > minutes ago that has persisted to now. And there is no way for pure numbers > to do that, but matter/energy can. > >> >> When you say "there is no way for X", might it be a failure of imagination? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
