> On 7 May 2019, at 01:04, Bruce Kellett <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Tue, May 7, 2019 at 7:02 AM Jason Resch <[email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote: > On Mon, May 6, 2019 at 3:41 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> > wrote: > > > I am not following where this point is going. Do you dispute the idea that > you could put a finite program in your friend's head and you wouldn't not be > able to tell the difference? > > I was just reacting to you statement that a person can be defined as a > finitely describable TM. > > If by person you mean body, then perhaps not. But if by person you mean mind, > this is the assumption of the computational theory of mind. > > That is the claim that is in dispute; Goedel and Turing find it unproven at > best. > > And there is also the point that whatever TM you use to model a person, > physics says it will be entangled with the environment and effectively random > at a low level. Even Bruno agrees that the physics of the world is not TM > emulable. > > Quantum physics is emulable. It's the first person viewpoints of the apparent > randomness are not. (but this randomness is subjective, not objective). > > That is idea stems from a confusion in your (Bruno's) definition of first > person and third person views. In Bruno's person-duplication thought > experiments, there is a distinction between 1p and 3p that makes sense in > that context. But this does not carry over to QM, where there is no viewpoint > that sees fully unitary quantum evolution. Bruno seeks to avoid this fact > this by defining a first person-plural (1pp) point of view. But that is just > another name for what is normally considered the third person perspective.
That is impossible. The first person plural is when two persons enter the annihilation box. They will share the indeterminacy, but that indeterminacy is still 1p. The “3p” see only two guys being duplicated. The mechanist definition of the first person plural correspond to the quantum notion of entanglement, or what I describe often as the contagion of superposition, due to the linearity of the tensor product. The unitary quantum evolution explains why the observer feels like there as been a reduction, but also make them impossible to occur in the 3p global picture. > Changing the name does not change the substance..... The randomness of QM is > third person and objective. Then you introduce a collapse, and QM is simply false globally. All the attempts to make sense of this have led to difficulties. So your assertion seems to be wishful thinking. Then with mechanism, we get the many-histories from a simple fact to prove: all computations are realised in all models of arithmetic. Bruno > > When it comes to replicating the behaviors of a close friend, these concern > objective out-wardly visible objective behaviors, rather than the first > person experience of your friend. > > This is either badly worded, or you are agreeing that the outward objective > behaviours of your friend are 3p in the usual sense, and influenced by the > randomness of QM. Likewise, the first person experiences of your friend > follow one path of the quantum branching -- we do not experience all branches > of the MWI simultaneously. Your arguments against the conclusion of Goedel > and Turing have no merit. > > Bruce > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5A99F30F-200F-4E90-92F7-9759374778C6%40ulb.ac.be. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
