On Fri, Aug 2, 2019 at 10:26 AM Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote:
> *> a physical computation is a computation realised by some physical > object, but that does not made per se a computation into a physical > notion. * > If nobody can find a computation that is not realized by some physical object, and nobody can, then computation is a physical not a mathematical notion. Mathematical language can describe a computation just as the English language can describe a cat, but the three letter English word "cat" is not an animal and is not alive. > But using observable as a criterion of “reality” is equivalent with > assuming Aristotle materialist ontology. > Aristotle my ass! Emphasizing the importance of observation is equivalent to emphasizing the importance of induction and of the scientific method and emphasizing the non-importance of your airy-fairy new age woo woo. > *I say we have to come back to Plato* [...] > I say the mention of a 2500 year old ignoramus is my cue to skip to the next paragraph. >> We know for a fact a Turing Machine made of matter > > *>Turing machine are not made of matter.* > The type of Turing Machine that can change with time, that is to say the type that can actually *do* something, the type that is amenable to the scientific method, *MUST* be made of matter that obeys the laws of physics. No exceptions. > matter that obeys the laws of physics can emulate a Turing Machine made of >> matter that obeys the laws of physics. And we know for a fact that a >> Turing Machine made of matter that obeys the laws of physics is the only >> type of Turing Machine anybody has ever observed that can actually *do* >> something. > > > *> Yes, but matter does not need to be primitive for that.* > Matter may or may not be the ultimate in primitive, but if matter can do even one thing that numbers can't (and even you admit that pure numbers can't generate power but matter can) then matter must be more primitive than numbers. > > *The people in arithmetic get the same experience as us when knocking a > virtual “arithmetical” table, and argue correctly that they need to build > physical machine if they want to interact with them, * > Maybe our world and even we ourselves are all a simulation, but if so then the cosmic virtual reality program MUST be running on a computer made of matter that obeys the laws of physics because matter has one key attribute that arithmetic lacks, matter can change but arithmetic can't. And you can't have computation without change. >> If a Physical Turing Machine can produce a mind then there is no reason >> another Physical Turing Machine could not emulate the machine that is >> producing the mind. > > > *> But in that case, unless you put some magic in the notion of digital, > the same emulation in arithmetic will produces the same effects. * > If arithmetic could emulate it then it would produce the same effect, but it can't. If we had some cream then we could have strawberries and cream, if we had some strawberries. >> Arithmetical reality wouldn't even exist if matter that obeys the laws >> of physics didn't have the ability to make calculations if it's organized >> in the general sort of way Turing described. >> > > *> Assuming Aristotle theology*[...] > And that is my cue to skip to the next paragraph because I believe in the value of inductive reasoning and you have never said anything intelagent after those three words. *>>Nobody has found a non physical machine to emulate a physical machine, > indeed, we cannot make energy from natural numbers alone* > > So even you admit that there is at least one thing that physics can do > that pure mathematics can NOT. > *> Assuming a* [...] Assumptions be damned! You're claiming if you make one assumption you can miraculously power a lightbulb with pure numbers but if you don't make the assumption the bulb goes dark. That's called magical thinking, prove it works by making the correct assumptions and start turning on light bulbs unconnected to the electrical grid. John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv09oLiBPyncjuFErVmdd1BwRtVFt_MF3H%2B2STnsmOfqjA%40mail.gmail.com.
