> On 12 Aug 2019, at 11:49, Philip Thrift <cloudver...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 4:17:04 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
> 
>> On 12 Aug 2019, at 00:16, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 1:07:02 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>> 
>>> On 9 Aug 2019, at 22:27, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The Right Stuff
>>> Ned Markosian
>>> https://markosiandotnet.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/right-stuff.pdf 
>>> <https://markosiandotnet.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/right-stuff.pdf>
>>> from https://markosian.net/online-papers/ 
>>> <https://markosian.net/online-papers/>
>>> 
>>> Things are also known as “objects” and “entities,” and stuff is also known 
>>> as
>>> “matter” and “material.”
>>> 
>>> This paper argues for including stuff in one’s ontology. The distinction
>>> between things and stuff is first clarified, and then three different 
>>> ontologies
>>> of the physical universe are spelled out: a pure thing ontology, a pure 
>>> stuff
>>> ontology, and a mixed ontology of both things and stuff. (The paper defends
>>> the latter.) Eleven different reasons for including stuff (in addition to 
>>> things)
>>> in one’s ontology are given (seven of which the author endorses and four of
>>> which would be sensible reasons for philosophers with certain metaphysical
>>> positions that the author does not happen to hold). Then five objections to
>>> positing stuff are considered and rejected.
>> 
>> Honest and clear defence of stuff!. I appreciate his distinction between 
>> things and stuff.
>> 
>> So with mechanism, we can say:  many things no stuff! 
>> (Many things like numbers, machines, persons,  physical objects, physical 
>> experiences, etc.),
>> 
>> 
>> Feel free to defend any of the eleven reason he gave. Up to now (I read 
>> slowly) I am not  convinced.
>> 
>> I am more sure that 2+2=4 than of the existence of plumb, .. not mentioning 
>> the existence of a  plumber !
>> 
>> Bruno
>> 
>> 
>>  I don't know about a plumb, but of a plum, I am more sure of any of my 
>> experiences of eating a plum than 2+2=4.
> 
> But the experience of eating a plum is not a proof that the plum is made of 
> matter. I dreamed a lot eating things, for example. A first person experience 
> never proves anything, except the existence of that experience for the one 
> who remember it.
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> 2+2=4 is a heuristic of mathematical language. Useful for us, but not "real" 
>> like a plum-eating experience.
> 
> With mechanism, we do have an explanation of where such experience come from.
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> Language bewilders us, and thus we talk and write and think of things, but 
>> it's the plum stuff that matters.
> 
> 
> Then mechanism is false. Maybe, but the evidences side with mechanism, not 
> with materialism. Yes, language bewllders us in making us believe in stuff, 
> but if digital mechanism is correct, all the argument you might find for 
> better are find by your counterpart in arithmetic, and here we know that they 
> are invalid, but that shows that your intuition is not well sustained, or 
> that mechanism is false (and the “you” in arithmetic becomes p-zombies.
> 
> Bruno
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the whole panpsychism (here the Galen Stawson, Philip Goff, Hedda 
> Hassel Mørch‏, ... materialist panpsychist kind, not the idealist version of 
> maybe a few) enterprise.
> 
> Either:
> 
> Mechanism is true.
> 
>        or
> 
> Panpsychism is true.


Why?

It seems to me that if Mechanism is false, *many* different sorts of 
non-mechanist theory can be true, including pure arithmetical one, or set 
theoretical one.

With Non-Mechanism, weak materialism *might* become consistent, but that does 
not (yet) make it  necessarily true.

Bruno





> 
> 
> @philipthrift
> 
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