> On 12 Aug 2019, at 11:49, Philip Thrift <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Monday, August 12, 2019 at 4:17:04 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 12 Aug 2019, at 00:16, Philip Thrift <[email protected] <javascript:>> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Sunday, August 11, 2019 at 1:07:02 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 9 Aug 2019, at 22:27, Philip Thrift <[email protected] <>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> The Right Stuff >>> Ned Markosian >>> https://markosiandotnet.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/right-stuff.pdf >>> <https://markosiandotnet.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/right-stuff.pdf> >>> from https://markosian.net/online-papers/ >>> <https://markosian.net/online-papers/> >>> >>> Things are also known as “objects” and “entities,” and stuff is also known >>> as >>> “matter” and “material.” >>> >>> This paper argues for including stuff in one’s ontology. The distinction >>> between things and stuff is first clarified, and then three different >>> ontologies >>> of the physical universe are spelled out: a pure thing ontology, a pure >>> stuff >>> ontology, and a mixed ontology of both things and stuff. (The paper defends >>> the latter.) Eleven different reasons for including stuff (in addition to >>> things) >>> in one’s ontology are given (seven of which the author endorses and four of >>> which would be sensible reasons for philosophers with certain metaphysical >>> positions that the author does not happen to hold). Then five objections to >>> positing stuff are considered and rejected. >> >> Honest and clear defence of stuff!. I appreciate his distinction between >> things and stuff. >> >> So with mechanism, we can say: many things no stuff! >> (Many things like numbers, machines, persons, physical objects, physical >> experiences, etc.), >> >> >> Feel free to defend any of the eleven reason he gave. Up to now (I read >> slowly) I am not convinced. >> >> I am more sure that 2+2=4 than of the existence of plumb, .. not mentioning >> the existence of a plumber ! >> >> Bruno >> >> >> I don't know about a plumb, but of a plum, I am more sure of any of my >> experiences of eating a plum than 2+2=4. > > But the experience of eating a plum is not a proof that the plum is made of > matter. I dreamed a lot eating things, for example. A first person experience > never proves anything, except the existence of that experience for the one > who remember it. > > > >> >> 2+2=4 is a heuristic of mathematical language. Useful for us, but not "real" >> like a plum-eating experience. > > With mechanism, we do have an explanation of where such experience come from. > > > >> >> Language bewilders us, and thus we talk and write and think of things, but >> it's the plum stuff that matters. > > > Then mechanism is false. Maybe, but the evidences side with mechanism, not > with materialism. Yes, language bewllders us in making us believe in stuff, > but if digital mechanism is correct, all the argument you might find for > better are find by your counterpart in arithmetic, and here we know that they > are invalid, but that shows that your intuition is not well sustained, or > that mechanism is false (and the “you” in arithmetic becomes p-zombies. > > Bruno > > > > > This is the whole panpsychism (here the Galen Stawson, Philip Goff, Hedda > Hassel Mørch, ... materialist panpsychist kind, not the idealist version of > maybe a few) enterprise. > > Either: > > Mechanism is true. > > or > > Panpsychism is true.
Why? It seems to me that if Mechanism is false, *many* different sorts of non-mechanist theory can be true, including pure arithmetical one, or set theoretical one. With Non-Mechanism, weak materialism *might* become consistent, but that does not (yet) make it necessarily true. Bruno > > > @philipthrift > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4308b5bd-ace8-4dd3-8a95-5f55538abe12%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/4308b5bd-ace8-4dd3-8a95-5f55538abe12%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/01918257-E7E1-4546-88FB-96048AB623FE%40ulb.ac.be.
