On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 12:21:12 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > > On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 3:14 PM Philip Thrift <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 11:12:58 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson wrote: >>> >>> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 10:01:19 PM UTC-6, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 5:55:36 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I came across a good article that is apposite to the discussion in >>>>> this thread. Arnold Neumaier has an article on virtual particles at: >>>>> >>>>> https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/vacuum-fluctuation-myth/ >>>>> >>>>> where he looks at the origin of much of the common mythology >>>>> surrounding the idea of vacuum fluctuations and virtual particles. People >>>>> should read this and take the lessons to heart -- all of this mythology >>>>> arose from well-meaning, but ultimately mis-guided, attempts to explain >>>>> the >>>>> mysteries of quantum mechanics to lay people. The result was enduring >>>>> confusion, that now affects even professional physicists. >>>>> >>>>> Bruce >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Very interesting fellow. Interesting article. I was intrigued reading >>>> the link there to his biography of himself being math to applied math >>>> ending up in computing and dabbling in physics. Sounded like me! >>>> >>>> Then >>>> >>>> Two years after my Ph.D., my formerly atheistic world view changed and >>>> I became a Christian. I got convinced that there is a very powerful God >>>> <http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~neum/sciandf/eng/arms.html> who created >>>> the Universe, who controls what appears to us as chance, and who is >>>> interested in each of us individually. I understood (with Galilei, and >>>> later Newton and Maxwell) that God had written the book of nature in the >>>> language of mathematics. As a result of these insights, one of my life >>>> goals became to understand all the important applications of mathematics >>>> in >>>> other fields of science, engineering, and ordinary life. It is a challenge >>>> that keeps me learning all my life. >>>> >>>> >>>> https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/interview-mathematician-physicist-arnold-neumaier/ >>>> >>>> @philipthrift >>>> >>> >>> Are you suggesting, maybe tongue in cheek, that his analysis of virtual >>> particles is suspect because he believes in a very powerful God? Do you >>> believe in such a God? AG >>> >> >> >> >> I've always been an atheistic materialist. I don't know if his "denial" >> of virtual particles is influenced by his theology or not, but this I know: >> > > > Maybe Neumaier is a good enough physicist not to let his theological > beliefs influence his physics. Don Page is another such whose name springs > to mind. Neumaier's rejection of the reality of virtual particles and > quantum foam is soundly based on his good physics. > > > *One physicist says there are Xs. Another physicist says there are no Xs. >> One or both is BSing. Probably both.* >> > > Maybe you are the one who is bull shitting? > Bruce > > > The luxury (or fun) of math and even applied math is it doesn't matter if >> whether you think of the entities of a theory being fictional or not. It is >> useful or it isn't. (In pure math, useful doesn't quite matter as in >> applied math.) >> >> @philipthrift >> >
BSing about what? I'm not making any claims about whether virtual particles exist. Here are two statements: "It's an experimentally well-confirmed fact that virtual particles exist." - http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2019/08/how-do-black-holes-destroy-information.html?showComment=1566705434388#c7842618397891133114 "Explanations in terms of virtual particles don't really work because virtual particles do not exert any force on anything -- because they are not real!!!!" - https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ixyC1nvZ3i8/NsBRnAvdBAAJ Now it seems to me that these are contradictory. Are you saying one is absolutely right and the other is absolutely wrong? Are you saying that there is some sort of dialethic logic physicists operate with? @philipthrift -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/bcca5308-258f-4311-811e-466edfde2ca8%40googlegroups.com.
