On 8/27/2019 10:43 PM, Philip Thrift wrote:
On Wednesday, August 28, 2019 at 12:21:12 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote:
On Wed, Aug 28, 2019 at 3:14 PM Philip Thrift <[email protected]
<javascript:>> wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 11:12:58 PM UTC-5, Alan Grayson
wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 10:01:19 PM UTC-6, Philip
Thrift wrote:
On Tuesday, August 27, 2019 at 5:55:36 PM UTC-5, Bruce
wrote:
I came across a good article that is apposite to
the discussion in this thread. Arnold Neumaier has
an article on virtual particles at:
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/vacuum-fluctuation-myth/
<https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/vacuum-fluctuation-myth/>
where he looks at the origin of much of the common
mythology surrounding the idea of vacuum
fluctuations and virtual particles. People should
read this and take the lessons to heart -- all of
this mythology arose from well-meaning, but
ultimately mis-guided, attempts to explain the
mysteries of quantum mechanics to lay people. The
result was enduring confusion, that now affects
even professional physicists.
Bruce
Very interesting fellow. Interesting article. I was
intrigued reading the link there to his biography of
himself being math to applied math ending up in
computing and dabbling in physics. Sounded like me!
Then
Two years after my Ph.D., my formerly atheistic world
view changed and I became a Christian. I got convinced
that there is a very powerful God
<http://www.mat.univie.ac.at/~neum/sciandf/eng/arms.html> who
created the Universe, who controls what appears to us
as chance, and who is interested in each of us
individually. I understood (with Galilei, and later
Newton and Maxwell) that God had written the book of
nature in the language of mathematics. As a result of
these insights, one of my life goals became to
understand all the important applications of
mathematics in other fields of science, engineering,
and ordinary life. It is a challenge that keeps me
learning all my life.
https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/interview-mathematician-physicist-arnold-neumaier/
<https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/interview-mathematician-physicist-arnold-neumaier/>
@philipthrift
Are you suggesting, maybe tongue in cheek, that his
analysis of virtual particles is suspect because he
believes in a very powerful God? Do you believe in such a
God? AG
I've always been an atheistic materialist. I don't know if his
"denial" of virtual particles is influenced by his theology or
not, but this I know:
Maybe Neumaier is a good enough physicist not to let his
theological beliefs influence his physics. Don Page is another
such whose name springs to mind. Neumaier's rejection of the
reality of virtual particles and quantum foam is soundly based on
his good physics.
*One physicist says there are Xs. Another physicist says there
are no Xs. One or both is BSing. Probably both.*
Maybe you are the one who is bull shitting?
Bruce
The luxury (or fun) of math and even applied math is it
doesn't matter if whether you think of the entities of a
theory being fictional or not. It is useful or it isn't. (In
pure math, useful doesn't quite matter as in applied math.)
@philipthrift
BSing about what? I'm not making any claims about whether virtual
particles exist.
Here are two statements:
"It's an experimentally well-confirmed fact that virtual particles exist."
-
http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2019/08/how-do-black-holes-destroy-information.html?showComment=1566705434388#c7842618397891133114
<http://backreaction.blogspot.com/2019/08/how-do-black-holes-destroy-information.html?showComment=1566705434388#c7842618397891133114>
"Explanations in terms of virtual particles don't really work because
virtual particles do not exert any force on anything -- because they
are not real!!!!"
-
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ixyC1nvZ3i8/NsBRnAvdBAAJ
<https://groups.google.com/d/msg/everything-list/ixyC1nvZ3i8/NsBRnAvdBAAJ>
Now it seems to me that these are contradictory.
They seem so, but they are referring to different contexts.
Brent
Are you saying one is absolutely right and the other is absolutely
wrong? Are you saying that there is some sort of dialethic logic
physicists operate with?
@philipthrift
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