On 7/21/2020 7:01 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:11 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

    Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity and
    therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed.  You
    might as well say one has a future and therefore everything one's
    life is past and therefore fixed.


Rietdijk and Hilary Putnam both argued relativity implies determinism and existence of all points in time. Minkowski, Einstein, Penrose all supported the idea. Feynman diagrams and his explanation of antimatter imply the existence of the future.

Strange, yes, it's not how we evolved to interpret reality. But I wouldn't say it's silly, I think it's an inescapable conclusion of the four dimensional reality implied by relativity.

But all it proves is that there are coordinate values there.  It doesn't prove anything about determinism.

Brent


Jason


    Brent
    "What is there?  Everything! So what isn't there? Nothing!"
             --- Norm Levitt, after Quine

    On 7/21/2020 4:38 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
    I calculated the time difference for the two observers moving,
    128km/hr or about .036km/sec, that their relative time with
    Andromeda is less than a second.

    We have a problem with defining nothingness. Is there
    nothingness? Well this implies nothingness can exist, and if it
    exists is is not nothing. If nothingness does not exist then of
    course by definition there is something that exists. Of course
    this is a bit of a semantics game. but in QFT the closest we have
    to nothingness is the vacuum state, where this can transition
    into a new vacuum to produce particles.

    LC

    On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 1:15:08 PM UTC-5 Jason wrote:

        I recently came across a paper by C. W. Rietdijk (who is
        perhaps most famous for using special relativity to prove the
        existence
        <https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Rietdijk%E2%80%93Putnam_argument>
        of a pre-determined, timeless, physical reality) in 1966.

        As it turns out, he was active and publishing into his 90s,
        and in 2018 published:

            "*Four-dimensional reality continued.* The implications
            of the block universe for the origin of matter,
            consciousness and a possible afterlife. The
            Einstein–Podolsky–Rosen paradox and its role in four
            dimensions"



        I have found much of it to be fascinating and also in line
        with Bruno's theories. For example, some excerpts:

            In the beginning, there was only truth, logic and their
            relation. No possible reality can do without them.

            As we move from a 3D to a 4D theory of the Universe,
            several crucial questions need to be asked and answered.
            One of the most important of those questions concerns the
            creation of matter. In this section, we deal with this
            question and ask ourselves: Was matter actually created
            and how /real/ is it?

            In 4D a Big Bang is both inconceivable and irrelevant; a
            4D universe is static—there are no changes in the time
            direction, therefore a transition from a Universal Void
            to the existence of matter cannot be. In both 3D and 4D,
            we must start from the irrefutable fact that “something”
            must have always been there, and we believe this to be
            the laws of nature. Voltaire’s argument about the
            existence of God (No watch without a watchmaker) begs the
            question who created the watch/maker/, unless we assume
            that the laws of nature and the universe created
            themselves. It is our firm belief that the Pythagorean
            theorem needs not be created, nor the fact that the
            circumference of a circle is 3.14… times the diameter;
            the laws of nature and the collection of truths, values
            and their interrelations are primordial and have always
            existed. The fundamental stuff of the Universe in 4D
            consists of logic, mathematics and natural law, which of
            course exist and always have existed. It seems impossible
            to eliminate truths, values, etc., from the Universe.
            Note that in a deterministic conception, there is only
            one universe. This is the universe that we see; a static
            4D universe which is not void.

            The laws of nature—which have always existed—imply that
            intelligence has always existed and has always been
            present, with its correlates“experience” and
            “Aha-erlebnis,” perceivable to man here and now. It would
            seem that intelligence must have preceded everything, but
            in our search for the origin of matter, we cannot content
            ourselves by simply stating that (3D) matter is produced
            by intelligence. It /is/ possible from the concept of
            completed intelligence (viz., intelligence including
            experience and the Aha-erlebnis), to create the deceptive
            /suggestion/ of the existence of matter, experienced in a
            collective dream, dreamed by living, intelligent beings.
            This is what we consider to be consciousness. The
            recognition of the differences between patterns is an
            Aha-erlebnis.

            The elementary particles as we know them form patterns,
            including very implicit or hidden patterns. The marker
            points and their patterns are the way Intelligence orders
            all that exists in the world, including feelings,
            thoughts, colors, sounds, etc. We hypothesize that the
            microparticles in the Universe form Universal patterns,
            or abstract, theoretical points that answer to the laws
            of nature, formulas and logical principles; the common
            coordinate points in the Universe. These points form a
            kind of skeleton of the grand pattern of the collective
            “dream;” a blueprint or map of the Universe.


        Jason

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