On 7/21/2020 9:13 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 9:47 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List <[email protected] <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:



    On 7/21/2020 7:01 PM, Jason Resch wrote:


    On Tue, Jul 21, 2020 at 7:11 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything
    List <[email protected]
    <mailto:[email protected]>> wrote:

        Besides, it's silly to say one "has" a plane of simultaneity
        and therefore everything in the past of that plane is fixed. 
        You might as well say one has a future and therefore
        everything one's life is past and therefore fixed.


    Rietdijk and Hilary Putnam both argued relativity implies
    determinism and existence of all points in time. Minkowski,
    Einstein, Penrose all supported the idea. Feynman diagrams and
    his explanation of antimatter imply the existence of the future.

    Strange, yes, it's not how we evolved to interpret reality. But I
    wouldn't say it's silly, I think it's an inescapable conclusion
    of the four dimensional reality implied by relativity.

    But all it proves is that there are coordinate values there.  It
    doesn't prove anything about determinism.

    Brent


If there is an objective reality beyond our immediate local vicinity, and if there is no privileged reference frame, then your present and my present contain different content.

You're assuming your present has some great extent, which is unjustified.

Brent

Some of the space-time events of my present are in your future, and others are in your past, and vice versa.

There are three consistent ways out of this:
1. There are privileged reference frames
2. There is no objective reality
3. All events in space-time are equally real

Jason


    Jason


        Brent
        "What is there?  Everything! So what isn't there?  Nothing!"
                 --- Norm Levitt, after Quine

        On 7/21/2020 4:38 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
        I calculated the time difference for the two observers
        moving, 128km/hr or about .036km/sec, that their relative
        time with Andromeda is less than a second.

        We have a problem with defining nothingness. Is there
        nothingness? Well this implies nothingness can exist, and if
        it exists is is not nothing. If nothingness does not exist
        then of course by definition there is something that exists.
        Of course this is a bit of a semantics game. but in QFT the
        closest we have to nothingness is the vacuum state, where
        this can transition into a new vacuum to produce particles.

        LC

        On Tuesday, July 21, 2020 at 1:15:08 PM UTC-5 Jason wrote:

            I recently came across a paper by C. W. Rietdijk (who is
            perhaps most famous for using special relativity to
            prove the existence
            <https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Rietdijk%E2%80%93Putnam_argument>
            of a pre-determined, timeless, physical reality) in 1966.

            As it turns out, he was active and publishing into his
            90s, and in 2018 published:

                "*Four-dimensional reality continued.* The
                implications of the block universe for the origin of
                matter, consciousness and a possible afterlife. The
                Einstein–Podolsky–Rosen paradox and its role in four
                dimensions"



            I have found much of it to be fascinating and also in
            line with Bruno's theories. For example, some excerpts:

                In the beginning, there was only truth, logic and
                their relation. No possible reality can do without them.

                As we move from a 3D to a 4D theory of the Universe,
                several crucial questions need to be asked and
                answered. One of the most important of those
                questions concerns the creation of matter. In this
                section, we deal with this question and ask
                ourselves: Was matter actually created and how
                /real/ is it?

                In 4D a Big Bang is both inconceivable and
                irrelevant; a 4D universe is static—there are no
                changes in the time direction, therefore a
                transition from a Universal Void to the existence of
                matter cannot be. In both 3D and 4D, we must start
                from the irrefutable fact that “something” must have
                always been there, and we believe this to be the
                laws of nature. Voltaire’s argument about the
                existence of God (No watch without a watchmaker)
                begs the question who created the watch/maker/,
                unless we assume that the laws of nature and the
                universe created themselves. It is our firm belief
                that the Pythagorean theorem needs not be created,
                nor the fact that the circumference of a circle is
                3.14… times the diameter; the laws of nature and the
                collection of truths, values and their
                interrelations are primordial and have always
                existed. The fundamental stuff of the Universe in 4D
                consists of logic, mathematics and natural law,
                which of course exist and always have existed. It
                seems impossible to eliminate truths, values, etc.,
                from the Universe. Note that in a deterministic
                conception, there is only one universe. This is the
                universe that we see; a static 4D universe which is
                not void.

                The laws of nature—which have always existed—imply
                that intelligence has always existed and has always
                been present, with its correlates“experience” and
                “Aha-erlebnis,” perceivable to man here and now. It
                would seem that intelligence must have preceded
                everything, but in our search for the origin of
                matter, we cannot content ourselves by simply
                stating that (3D) matter is produced by
                intelligence. It /is/ possible from the concept of
                completed intelligence (viz., intelligence including
                experience and the Aha-erlebnis), to create the
                deceptive /suggestion/ of the existence of matter,
                experienced in a collective dream, dreamed by
                living, intelligent beings. This is what we consider
                to be consciousness. The recognition of the
                differences between patterns is an Aha-erlebnis.

                The elementary particles as we know them form
                patterns, including very implicit or hidden
                patterns. The marker points and their patterns are
                the way Intelligence orders all that exists in the
                world, including feelings, thoughts, colors, sounds,
                etc. We hypothesize that the microparticles in the
                Universe form Universal patterns, or abstract,
                theoretical points that answer to the laws of
                nature, formulas and logical principles; the common
                coordinate points in the Universe. These points form
                a kind of skeleton of the grand pattern of the
                collective “dream;” a blueprint or map of the Universe.


            Jason

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