Am Do, 25. Feb 2021, um 10:55, schrieb Bruno Marchal: > >> On 24 Feb 2021, at 15:30, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> As an outside observer, I can't help but notice the following pattern in >> American politics: every presidential election is now seen as a >> civilization-threatening event, where each side believes that the other side >> is literally pure evil in its crystalized form, and that if they win, life >> as we know it will be over. We have now been through several iterations of >> this, and the reality is that nothing ever seems to happen, one way or the >> other. > > I think that before Trump, most Dems and Rep saw themselves as adversary, but > not as enemy. Only with Trump, the adversary has become a scapegoat, an > enemy, the responsible of all wrongs. Trump does not seem to be able to > dialog, not even with its close accomplices. Trump is the worst enemy of … > Trump. I think that his case is close to being pathological.
I agree, but I think Trump is a symptom, not a cause. There is also Boris Johnson, who is Britain's Trump, Bolsonaro, who is Brazil's Trump, etc. With the mainstream adoption of the Internet, in the early 2000s, political campaigns were reinvented (data-driven, highly targeted like advertisement). The early examples of this appear to be Tony Blair's second campaign in the UK and Obama's first in the US. Then it became the new norm, with increased sophistication. At the same time, journalism responded to the exestential threat created by the Internet by merging itself with the nascent ad-tech industry, pioneered by Google. In this new attention economy, the one who engages people's emotions the most wins. We are witnessing the race to the bottom that this creates, with widespread hysteria and irrationality from both sides of the political spectrum. I think that Trump and QAnon are products of this, and so is brexit on this side of the Atlantic. I think that this is not so different from the obesity crisis created by fast food. Like with hyper-palatable food, we have not evolved for an environment where we are constantly targeted by emotionally-charged "news" that are fine-tuned by algorithms to be hyper-stimulating. If it wasn't McDonald's, it would be something else. If it wasn't Trump, it would be someone else. > > >> >> Let me propose a (I know, perhaps crazy), alternative hypothesis: >> >> Your limbic system has been hijacked for clicks. The presidency is not as >> important as you think it is. Most people are mostly incompetent. China is >> incompetent, Russia is incompetent, the CIA is incompetent and so on and so >> forth. Very little of what they do matter to you or me in any way, shape or >> form. >> >> There is no class consciousness in the 21st century in the west. There will >> be no revolt of the middle classes. Antifa is just a bunch of college kids >> doing what college kids do. BLM protests created no problems of any >> significance whatsoever. Statues don't matter, cancel culture doesn't >> matter, the alt-right doesn't matter, none of it matters. Most of the public >> personalities on both the right and the left are entertainers making a >> living. Nothing of what they say matters. > > ? > If Trump would have said what he knew about covid-19 in February 2020), May > people would still be alive. Perhaps, but we have no way of testing the counter-factual scenario. Trump was extremely selfish and incompetent, I don't doubt this for a second, but I'm not sure if his incompetence didn't just result in the forest fire being started a bit earlier rather than later. But I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. I don't think we can know. It's a complex scenario. In Portugal they kind of did the right thing early, and the country had one of the best outcomes in Europe. Then they became confident, and ended up relaxing restrictions for Xmas. Then they quickly became the worst case in Europe. The US is exponentially more complex than Portugal. How long can you keep restrictions when you don't feel the outcomes? From what I see here in Berlin, it's not easy. Much worse in a country where self-reliance and distrust of government is baked into the culture from the beginning, I would say. (for good and bad!) > If Trump would have won the second term election: I think that democracy > would not have survived, on the whole planet, and the whole planet would be > like … Texas today. I mean without water, ... I don't think that the US is as important to rest of the world as it used to be. With all its flaws, I believe it is the EU that is now carrying the torch of liberal democracy, the "free world" as they liked to say during the Cold War. Perhaps because the still recent lessons on the XX century don't leave so much space to get drunk with fantasies of exceptionalism. > > >> >> The stuff that matters is boring: laws, education, serious journalism. If >> the legal system, or education, or newspapers give you an emotional rush, >> you're probably getting counterfeit goods. Being able to talk to each other >> without accusing the other side of being nazis or harvesting babies for >> adrenochrome is what probably matters. There is no conspiracy. There is just >> short-term greed, and new technologies that create environments that we did >> not evolve for. > > If short term greed is satisfy by honest means, there is no problem, but when > lies are made at the top, soon the belly, the health, and the basic needs > disappear, leading to suffering. I agree. My point is that we are still adopting to a highly transformative communication technology. Every time a qualitative jump in communication technology happens, it seems to create profound social transformations and challenges. Consider Gutenberg and Protestantism, or, what would have been of Hitler without radio, etc. > >> >> I detest Trump, but I detest him because he's a dumb and mean narcissist who >> sets a horrible example. I don't like bullies, and I hate it when they win. >> Otherwise, he didn't matter. He accomplished nothing of any significance, >> good or bad. > > I think he did one good thing, and a tun of very bad things, and his > endangering of democracy is not yet terminated. Thanks to him, there are > QAnon people in the government. That’s very bad. I guess you get my position by now: the Internet is the ulterior cause here, Trump is one of the consequences. I agree that democracy was and is endangered. > >> The covid fuck-up probably had more to do with American culture and overall >> circumstances than anything else. The lack of a real public health system, > > That’s because prohibition and free-market are inconsistent. Then, the > abandon of rigour in the fundamental human science makes people accepting > inconsistencies, which lead to human catastrophes. Even the “electric crisis” > in Texas comes from the worst political isolationnisme possible, and a > willingness to refuse a free-market for electricity. I agree. > >> the self-reliant mentality that has a great side and a horrible side, the >> glorification of work at all costs, the social inequalities that force a lot >> of people to work at all costs. All stuff that was already there, and will >> keep being there. Every country in the world thought they were very smart >> about covid until they weren't. If one compares covid to the Spanish flu, >> it's unfolding in exactly the same way. The curves look the same, it's >> uncanny. >> >> Biden won't matter either, nor will Kamala. > > When good willing people can do compromise, people have a bigger chance to > drink when thirsty or to eat when hungry. And kids have more chance to get a > solid education, and become less prone to lies. I fear as much Sanders than > Trump, Really? Sanders sounds like a moderate social-democrat to my European ears... > and the task will not be easy for Biden and Kamala, but I leave them a > chance, and at least, they are of the type of beings capable of conceding > losing elections. Trump, it seems to me, has clearly shows his envy to be a > dictator, which it is the first time in the US that this could have happened. > Without the honesty of the Republicans in Georgia, Trump might have become > the 46th president, and I don’t even want to imagine the state of the US > after that. I agree with you that he wished to become a dictator, and there is no doubt that he tried a coup. It looks like about 30% of the population will support him no matter what, and desires a military coup and a tyrant backed by the military. They also fantasize about the public execution of all political rivals. That being said, it looks like 30% is the ceiling, and I suspect they were there all along. It is just that it was easier to hide them, from all of us and from each other, when that state had a firmer grip on centralized media pre-Internet. My optimistic view is that 4 more years of Trump would not cause this 30% ceiling to grow. On the contrary, it is perhaps doomed to recede due to demographic changes. I think it is also good to take a step back from all the emotionally charged environment that ad-tech enabled "journalism" has created for all of us. >> >> Is there a lot of stuff that we should improve in the world? Oh yes! But >> none of this has anything to do with that. > > I think that the democracy is the base to make any long-term improvement > possible. Of course, it is a “living” thing, and so it can get sick, and even > die. I agree. > For me, democracy is a symptom of our Löbianity: the knowledge that we don’t > know the truth, nor can we know what is the best for us, and the consequence: > let us try and see if it works, and letting people judge if it works, by > oscillating between alternative solutions. I agree and it is very fragile because people can be convinced to vote for tyranny. But I do think that: (1) The US is far from that; (2) The US doesn't matter as it once has. > Paul Valery said that the human choice is between war and logic. Democracy is > the attempt to use logic, and argumentation around a table, instead of bloody > war on a battlefield, and I think it is a key progress. It prevents dark > lasting ideology of possible bully monarchs. Yes. I know a lot of people who fetishize war. It is a particularly bad problem in the US, with all the acritical "thank you for your service" mentality. Perhaps a bit like what happened in Rome, where the only avenue to climb the social ladder for a lot of people was through the army. But it is also a problem here and elsewhere. Telmo > Bruno > > > >> >> Telmo >> >> Am Mi, 24. Feb 2021, um 04:14, schrieb spudboy100 via Everything List: >>> Well look at it this way The billionaires the globalist all the same funded >>> and conspired with news media according to Time magazine a couple of weeks >>> ago to get their China money back which was the essence of their opposition >>> to the orange man. Going forward it's going to be more interesting to see >>> what happens with the US domestic economy first, and then see if the >>> so-called Democrats decide to use political oppression on top of this. What >>> I am guessing is that if and when they do, and it is no certainty, we'll >>> see a rebellion in the USA, because not everybody in this continent is so >>> easily persuaded by whatever Obama and Kamala and of course Joe have to say >>> about things specifically don't lose sight of the fact that it is there >>> oligarchy that is running things now and not the US middle class and I >>> think things will break along class lines if it when things go bad >>> especially economically. Peace out! >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, February 23, 2021 Bruno Marchal >>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On 21 Jan 2021, at 01:34, spudboy100 via Everything List >>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> Bruno, I completely agree and will be delighted to be proven wrong, as >>>> thus, the new people (basically Obama's people) have a turn again at bat >>>> (US baseball reference). QANON, I ignored because they produced nothing >>>> useful, Basically, a disinformation campaign, and many of these in the >>>> past seemingly, were not all by the Soviets, the Chinese Communist Party, >>>> but were spun up by US advertising agencies. All in the name of >>>> psychological warfare. >>> >>> I don’t think we can compare the lying propaganda (of the USSR for exemple) >>> with the advertising in the US. Even the lies on drugs could be criticised, >>> and the truth be known, like with the book of Jack Herer. He has not been >>> sent in jail, nor his family get under threats. Threats in politics in >>> something new in America, and seems to come up through Trump and those who >>> enabled him. That is very grave, but, thank God, the US is still a >>> democracy. But the Republican Party is very sick, that is what we can say. >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Here is my questions for the departed Orange President? Where is your >>>> evidence of massive, successful, voter fraud? >>>> >>>> Since you had mentioned back in 2016 when you ran against Hillary, >>> >>> I ran for nobody. After one week of Trump’s campaign I predicted (wrongly) >>> that he would not get more than one vote. I am vey naïve, but once he >>> promised he would show his taxes, I knew he was a crook. I am a republican, >>> just horrified by Donald Trump and most of his acolytes. For me you can put >>> Trump at the extreme left. You need this to lick Putin and Kim-Young-Un >>> feet... >>> >>> >>> >>>> and quoted a study that indicated illegals in the US voting, you must have >>>> expected vote fraud, so why not take the steps to ensure that it would be >>>> difficult to conduct mass fraud?? >>> >>> The election in the US are very well organised. To have mass fraud is >>> basically impossible. You would need thousands of democrats becoming (fake) >>> member of the Republican Party. At this hours, we would have many >>> whistleblowers using some doubt, at the least. But none of this occur, and >>> no people witnessing frauds have maintained their claim under oath. I >>> think, with Crebs, that: those were the most secure election ever made on >>> the planet. >>> >>> Now, the facts that republicans continue to fear Trump worry me. They will >>> lose the election and the honour, and that’s the best case scenario for the >>> US. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >>>> To: [email protected] >>>> Sent: Wed, Jan 20, 2021 10:41 am >>>> Subject: Re: Q Anon is the tip of the iceberg >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 17 Jan 2021, at 08:22, spudboy100 via Everything List >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Universities are the autocratic kings of censorship and repression. >>>> Some universities are like that, with some degree. When I was young, there >>>> were some excellent course in philosophy alongside with course which were >>>> pure and simple propaganda. >>>> >>>> Then even the math departement was politicised, after may 1968. You needed >>>> to be communist to be well seen by the geometers, to be socialist to be >>>> well seen by Algebraists, and to be capitalist to be analyst (calculus). >>>> Well, not as clearcut at this, but that was in the air, and some student >>>> got bad note for not applauding some local ideology, which was outrageous, >>>> Some have fight on this and win, others have fight and got many problems. >>>> It all depends on the character of many individuals, but of course, the >>>> pré-eminance of the human general law “the boss is right” does not help. >>>> >>>> At least, in a working democracy, we can change the boss from time to >>>> time. That is a real progress, and perhaps the only one since Plato, in >>>> the human science. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> It is no mistake that the most tyrannical of presidents Wilson and Obama >>>>> arrived from the realm of professorship. I would add FDR and his >>>>> internment camps, but he did free more peeps, than he imprisoned to say >>>>> the least, so good on him. >>>>> So what to do? My part is easy! Wait for errors on the side of the ruling >>>>> class, that affects the middle class, and when enough uncorrected >>>>> problems pile up, people, naturally will react. Repression from social >>>>> media and the banks will be one thing that initiates a back-reaction >>>>> (right outta optical physics). >>>>> If the Dems do well with economic recovery, then it will be sunny skies >>>>> for them. Once Kamala gets in gear, we will see what her leadership >>>>> takes us? >>>> >>>> Let us give them a chance. We will see. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Saturday, January 16, 2021 Philip Benjamin >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> [John K Clark] >>>>> “No universities are doing any censoring either and for exactly the same >>>>> reason, although I do think threatening to expel students for what they >>>>> say is a very unproductive thing to do” >>>>> [Philip Benjamin] >>>>> There are hundreds if not thousands of instances to the contrary. Some >>>>> are listed below. That is why I call these Universities WAMP—Western >>>>> Acade-Media Pagan(ism). >>>>> 1. https://www.thefire.org/10-worst-colleges-for-free-speech-2020/ >>>>> 2. >>>>> https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2014/07/24/scientist-alleges-csun-fired-him-for-discovery-of-soft-tissue-on-dinosaur-fossil/ >>>>> LOS >>>>> ANGELES (CBSLA.com <http://cbsla.com/>) — Attorneys for a California >>>>> State University, Northridge scientist who was terminated from his job >>>>> after discovering soft tissue on a triceratops fossil have filed a >>>>> lawsuit against the university. >>>>> 3. https://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/19/us/19kentucky.html >>>>> Astronomer Sues the University of Kentucky, Claiming His Faith Cost >>>>> Him a Job >>>>> 4. >>>>> https://www.christianpost.com/news/professor-fired-after-speech-opposing-puberty-blocking-drugs-sues-university.html >>>>> A Psychiatry Professor fired after speech opposing puberty-blocking >>>>> drugs sues university >>>>> 5. >>>>> https://mynewsla.com/crime/2021/01/11/chapman-professor-who-supports-trump-resists-calls-for-ouster/ >>>>> A Chapman University law professor who has come under fire for his >>>>> election fraud claims and participation in a rally led by President >>>>> Donald Trump just before the insurrection at the Capitol fought back >>>>> Monday against critics who are calling for his ouster from the university >>>>> 6. http://www.theevolutioncrisis.org.uk/testimony5.php >>>>> 7. >>>>> https://www.amazon.com/Expelled-Intelligence-Allowed-Ben-Stein/dp/B001BYLFFS >>>>> Big science has expelled smart new ideas from the classroom ... >>>>> What they forgot is that every generation has its Rebel! That rebel, Ben >>>>> Stein (Ferris Bueller’s Day Off) travels the world on his quest, and >>>>> learns an awe-inspiring truth … that educators and scientists are being >>>>> ridiculed, denied tenure and even fired – for the crime of merely >>>>> believing that there might be evidence of design in nature, and that >>>>> perhaps life is not just the result of accidental, random chance. To >>>>> which Ben Says: Enough! And then gets busy. NOBODY messes with Ben. >>>>> Philip Benjamin >>>>> >>>>> From: [email protected] <[email protected]> >>>>> On Behalf Of John Clark >>>>> Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2021 6:12 AM >>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>> Cc: [email protected] >>>>> Subject: Re: Q Anon is the tip of the iceberg >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Jan 15, 2021 at 10:00 PM spudboy100 via Everything List >>>>> <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> > For me, all I need to see is which companies are doing the censoring? >>>>> >>>>> To censor someone you need the power to imprison or kill them if they say >>>>> something you don't like, so no company is doing any censoring, some of >>>>> them may want to but none of them are able to because only governments >>>>> have enough power to do that. I'm not saying companies don't have any >>>>> power at all because they do, and sometimes they use the power they do >>>>> have unwisely, and that's a problem, but the solution is not to give even >>>>> more power to the government because it already has quite enough power >>>>> thank you. So what is the solution? I don't know, there may not be one, >>>>> there is not always a solution to every problem and that's why we live in >>>>> an imperfect world and probably always will, but we should try to make >>>>> the imperfections as small as possible. And if history has taught us >>>>> anything it's that giving even more power to the government, which is >>>>> already the most powerful institution in our society, will not make the >>>>> world perfect. >>>>> >>>>> > Which universities are censoring for the "safety of the students" >>>>> >>>>> No universities are doing any censoring either and for exactly the same >>>>> reason, although I do think threatening to expel students for what they >>>>> say is a very unproductive thing to do. And I think the idea that >>>>> university students are such delicate snowflakes that they need >>>>> protection from harsh language or exposure to views different from their >>>>> own is ridiculous; they're not gonna be in college for their entire life >>>>> and sooner or later they're going to have to toughen up if they want to >>>>> live in the real world. So that's a problem, but the world is full of >>>>> problems and some of them we just have to live with. I know one thing for >>>>> sure: a government edict banning such a practice would cause more >>>>> problems than it solved. >>>>> >>>>> > We had 7 months of sporadic riots and the liberals (which I sometimes >>>>> > side with) and now they freak out when conservatives targets the >>>>> > capital. >>>>> >>>>> If you are not freaked out by a murderous mob of Stormtrumper zombies >>>>> staging a coup d'état by attacking the Capital Building which contained >>>>> the Vice President and every single member of the House and Senate in an >>>>> attempt to overturn the Constitution of the USA and a free election to >>>>> keep their "Dear Leader" in power indefinitely then there is something >>>>> very seriously wrong with you! >>>>> >>>>> John K Clark. >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/SA0PR11MB4704E7BC4D709068A5C29666A8A60%40SA0PR11MB4704.namprd11.prod.outlook.com >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/142155772.2685116.1610868150478%40mail.yahoo.com >>>>> >>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/142155772.2685116.1610868150478%40mail.yahoo.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To view this 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