On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 2:15:01 PM UTC-6 [email protected] wrote:
> > > On 12/27/2022 12:07 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-6 Lawrence Crowell wrote: > >> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 1:04:36 PM UTC-6 [email protected] >> wrote: >> >>> My late friend Vic Stenger pointed out that there's a different way of >>> looking at this. Most people say gravity is the weakest force because they >>> compare the gravitational force between two elementary charged particles, >>> e.g. two electrons, two protons, or an electron and a proton, to the EM >>> force between them and gravity is weaker by a large factor on the order of >>> 1e-36. But while there is a natural unit of electric charge, there are no >>> particles with a natural unit of gravitational charge, i.e. mass. But there >>> is a natural unit of mass; it’s just not one that any particle has (at >>> least not any particle we could produce). It’s the Planck mass. The Planck >>> mass is derived just from the fundamental constants: >>> >>> m_P = \sqrt{\frac{\hbar c}{G}} = 2.18e-18 Kg >>> >>> So we should calculate the ratio of the gravitational to EM force of two >>> Planck masses each with unit charge >>> >>> \frac{F_G}{F_{EM}} = G m_P^2/Ke^2 = 137 >>> >>> where K is Coulomb’s constant and G is Newton’s constant. And behold, >>> the gravity is stronger by the inverse of the fine-structure constant. >>> >>> Why this great discrepancy in the two ways of looking at the question? >>> Well, first in quantum field theory the particles are all massless. Few get >>> a little mass from interaction with the Higgs field which has (for no >>> particular reason) a non-zero vacuum energy. All the rest of the particle >>> masses come from the binding energy of fields. So they have very little >>> gravitational mass. The Planck mass is the mass of the smallest possible >>> black hole, one whose de Broglie wave length equals its diameter. And it is >>> huge by particle standards. It’s the mass of a bacterium. So in this way of >>> looking at it gravity is strong, but the fundamental particles are almost >>> massless. >>> >>> Brent >>> >>> >> This is a ratio of forces with gravity and EM, but with Planck masses. >> BTW, my numbers come out to 1.23x10^3. Gravitation lacks a unitless >> coupling constant such as the QED fine structure constant α ~ 1/137. The >> Higgs field gives particles their masses, where fundamental fermions have a >> small mass given by the zitterbewegung induced by the Higgs field. So a >> possible definition of a dimensionless gravitational coupling constant >> is α_G = (m_H/m_p)^2. The Higgs mass is around 125GeV/c^2 and so α_G = >> 1.x10^{-16}. >> >> LC >> >> > > erratum: the last number is α_G = 1.x10^{-34}. > > LC > > > But the proton mass, m_p, isn't fundamental. A proton isn't even a > fundamental particle. That's why Vic thought the Planck mass was the only > sensible candidate. And if a particles gets mass from the Higgs field, > comparing it's mass to the Higg's mass is more the measure of the weak > coupling between the Higgs field and the particle. > > Brent > M_p is the Planck mass. LC > > > >> >>> On 12/27/2022 3:46 AM, John Clark wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 5:59 AM Jason Resch <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> *> There's an interesting relationship between the strength of the >>>> electrostatic repulsion between two protons, and the gravitational >>>> attraction of protons. It works out such that it takes ~10^54 protons >>>> gathered together in one place before the gravitational attraction can >>>> overwhelm the electrostatic repulsion. In other words, stars as as big and >>>> long-lived as they are because gravity is so weak.* >>>> >>> >>> That's true, and one of the biggest mysteries in physics is why gravity >>> is so weak, after all the strong nuclear force can keep 100 or even 2 >>> protons in one place. The only explanation I've heard is the hypothesis >>> that there are other spatial dimensions besides the 3 that we're familiar >>> with, string theory claims there are at least 9, but that all the forces of >>> nature EXCEPT for gravity are confined to just 3 dimensions so they >>> generally follow the law that says they decrease with distance according to >>> the well known 1/r^2 rule, but gravity is free to radiate into all 9 >>> dimensions so it decreases with distance according to a 1/r^8 rule; and the >>> reason we don't see gravity behave this way in our everyday life is it the >>> other 6 dimensions are curled up very tightly so the effect becomes >>> apparent only at the ultra microscopic scale. It's a nice theory but >>> there's not a scrap of experimental evidence to support it. >>> >>> John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis >>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis> >>> hfl >>> >>> >>>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv2jR%2BUcPiSviVfghHmpzN7NN_yNURGiBKNcQvjYaD7y7g%40mail.gmail.com >>> >>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CAJPayv2jR%2BUcPiSviVfghHmpzN7NN_yNURGiBKNcQvjYaD7y7g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >>> . >>> >>> >>> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/7fb19d40-e9db-445d-94f2-f19c25f16f65n%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/7fb19d40-e9db-445d-94f2-f19c25f16f65n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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