On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 2:15:01 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
> On 12/27/2022 12:07 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 2:03:44 PM UTC-6 Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, December 27, 2022 at 1:04:36 PM UTC-6 meeke...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> My late friend Vic Stenger pointed out that there's a different way of
>>> looking at this. Most people say gravity is the weakest force because they
>>> compare the gravitational force between two elementary charged particles,
>>> e.g. two electrons, two protons, or an electron and a proton, to the EM
>>> force between them and gravity is weaker by a large factor on the order of
>>> 1e-36. But while there is a natural unit of electric charge, there are no
>>> particles with a natural unit of gravitational charge, i.e. mass. But there
>>> is a natural unit of mass; it’s just not one that any particle has (at
>>> least not any particle we could produce). It’s the Planck mass. The Planck
>>> mass is derived just from the fundamental constants:
>>>
>>> m_P = \sqrt{\frac{\hbar c}{G}} = 2.18e-18 Kg
>>>
>>> So we should calculate the ratio of the gravitational to EM force of two
>>> Planck masses each with unit charge
>>>
>>> \frac{F_G}{F_{EM}} = G m_P^2/Ke^2 = 137
>>>
>>> where K is Coulomb’s constant and G is Newton’s constant. And behold,
>>> the gravity is stronger by the inverse of the fine-structure constant.
>>>
>>> Why this great discrepancy in the two ways of looking at the question?
>>> Well, first in quantum field theory the particles are all massless. Few get
>>> a little mass from interaction with the Higgs field which has (for no
>>> particular reason) a non-zero vacuum energy. All the rest of the particle
>>> masses come from the binding energy of fields. So they have very little
>>> gravitational mass. The Planck mass is the mass of the smallest possible
>>> black hole, one whose de Broglie wave length equals its diameter. And it is
>>> huge by particle standards. It’s the mass of a bacterium. So in this way of
>>> looking at it gravity is strong, but the fundamental particles are almost
>>> massless.
>>>
>>> Brent
>>>
>>>
>> This is a ratio of forces with gravity and EM, but with Planck masses.
>> BTW, my numbers come out to 1.23x10^3. Gravitation lacks a unitless
>> coupling constant such as the QED fine structure constant α ~ 1/137. The
>> Higgs field gives particles their masses, where fundamental fermions have a
>> small mass given by the zitterbewegung induced by the Higgs field. So a
>> possible definition of a dimensionless gravitational coupling constant
>> is α_G = (m_H/m_p)^2. The Higgs mass is around 125GeV/c^2 and so α_G =
>> 1.x10^{-16}.
>>
>> LC
>>
>>
>
> erratum: the last number is α_G = 1.x10^{-34}.
>
> LC
>
>
> But the proton mass, m_p, isn't fundamental. A proton isn't even a
> fundamental particle. That's why Vic thought the Planck mass was the only
> sensible candidate. And if a particles gets mass from the Higgs field,
> comparing it's mass to the Higg's mass is more the measure of the weak
> coupling between the Higgs field and the particle.
>
> Brent
>
M_p is the Planck mass.
LC
>
>
>
>>
>>> On 12/27/2022 3:46 AM, John Clark wrote:
>>>
>>> On Tue, Dec 27, 2022 at 5:59 AM Jason Resch <jason...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> *> There's an interesting relationship between the strength of the
>>>> electrostatic repulsion between two protons, and the gravitational
>>>> attraction of protons. It works out such that it takes ~10^54 protons
>>>> gathered together in one place before the gravitational attraction can
>>>> overwhelm the electrostatic repulsion. In other words, stars as as big and
>>>> long-lived as they are because gravity is so weak.*
>>>>
>>>
>>> That's true, and one of the biggest mysteries in physics is why gravity
>>> is so weak, after all the strong nuclear force can keep 100 or even 2
>>> protons in one place. The only explanation I've heard is the hypothesis
>>> that there are other spatial dimensions besides the 3 that we're familiar
>>> with, string theory claims there are at least 9, but that all the forces of
>>> nature EXCEPT for gravity are confined to just 3 dimensions so they
>>> generally follow the law that says they decrease with distance according to
>>> the well known 1/r^2 rule, but gravity is free to radiate into all 9
>>> dimensions so it decreases with distance according to a 1/r^8 rule; and the
>>> reason we don't see gravity behave this way in our everyday life is it the
>>> other 6 dimensions are curled up very tightly so the effect becomes
>>> apparent only at the ultra microscopic scale. It's a nice theory but
>>> there's not a scrap of experimental evidence to support it.
>>>
>>> John K Clark See what's on my new list at Extropolis
>>> <https://groups.google.com/g/extropolis>
>>> hfl
>>>
>>>
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