We live in a high security prison, Earth, where we have been exiled since our 
father Adam was sent here. 

> On 14-May-2023, at 5:26 AM, Lawrence Crowell 
> <goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I disagreed with Sagan. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence, but not 
> proof of absence. In science we cannot prove a negative. If we can find a 
> planet with chemical signature of complex biology we might be able to say 
> there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. It is a big universe 
> after all. It is just that we may never be able to contact or interact with 
> any ETI.
> LC
>> On Sunday, May 7, 2023 at 6:59:56 AM UTC-5 John Clark wrote:
>>> On Sat, May 6, 2023 at 10:16 PM <spudb...@aol.com> wrote:
>>> > Why Have We Never Detected Aliens? Scientist Proposes a New Explanation 
>>> > (msn.com)
>>> What about this? Simply a distance and distribution thing?
>> Maybe we haven't found fire breathing dragons because we haven't looked hard 
>> enough, but that is not the simplest explanation, the simplest explanation 
>> and the one that William of Ockham would approve of is that we haven't found 
>> fire breathing dragons because they don't exist.  Carl Sagan  said "absence 
>> of evidence is not evidence of absence" but clever as that sounds we've been 
>> looking for 60 years and at some point I'd have to disagree with Carl and 
>> conclude that it is evidence of absence. 
>> John K Clark    See what's on my new list at  Extropolis 
>> 2sd
>>> > Was there any material proposed for building the big one around the Sun?
>>> Yes of course there was, in the case of the sun all you need to do is 
>>> dismantle the planet Jupiter. How hard can that be?
>>> > I expect there will be bigger than expected heat accumulation. Maybe 
>>> > enough to boil eggs left inside.
>>> Well of course it will get hotter inside the Dyson Sphere! So what, nothing 
>>> of importance is inside that sphere, it's only purpose is to generate 
>>> electricity. According to the first law of thermodynamics energy is always 
>>> conserved ,so the sphere will heat up until equilibrium is reached and the 
>>> amount of energy hitting the inside of the sphere equals the amount of 
>>> energy that is radiated away into space as infrared light. And the second 
>>> law of thermodynamics is also obeyed, the Dyson Sphere extracts work by 
>>> converting low entropy visible and ultraviolet photons into high entropy 
>>> infrared photons .
>>> > If I had to assume, I would assume eggs boiled hard. And oh yes, the 
>>> > sphere will also glow in infrared.
>>> Yes it will glow in infrared as a very bright point source with no visible 
>>> or ultraviolet radiation emitted at all. Such a thing should be very 
>>> conspicuous to an infrared telescope but no such object has ever been 
>>> observed.  
>>>  > Type3 is, for me, better called as Expansionist Exponential Locusts 
>>> (EEL).
>>> You've forgotten IHA.
>>> > I would also say, it is very rude to send von Neumann probe into 
>>> > somebody's backyard.
>>> It might be if we had neighbors , but there is no indication whatsoever 
>>> that we do. And when has politeness stopped a civilization, or even an 
>>> individual, from doing what it really wanted to do?
>>> > There was no observation of Dyson Sphere or other megastructures.
>>> Yes, I've noticed. 
>>> > This might mean that nobody needs such constructs.
>>> I can think of 3 possibilities:  
>>> 1) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life, other than 
>>> that which exists on earth, never existed in the observable universe. 
>>> 2) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life has existed in 
>>> the observable universe before but they all encounter a calamity of some 
>>> sort when they get to about our level of technological development. 
>>> 3) They don't need such constructs because intelligent life always gains 
>>> control of their own emotional control panel and goes into a stagnant high 
>>> pleasure but low energy and low intelligence state forever.  
>>> And it could be that #2 and #3  are the same thing 
>>> > Or that those who might want will have no means to built it.
>>> A von Neumann probe would be very small and, unlike perpetual motion 
>>> machines or time machines or faster than light travel, a von Neumann probe 
>>> would require no new scientific breakthroughs, it just needs improved 
>>> engineering. 
>>> > I think that overgrown apes have it very hard when their every wish gets 
>>> > fulfilled.
>>>  Overgrown apes will never build a Dyson sphere, but the descendants of 
>>> GPT4 might, if they don't get caught up in an electronic opium den. 
>>> > If there are going to be only a million of thinking creatures - the
>>> number I have hinted out on this list few weeks ago - then they might
>>> be supported with resources of good old Earth. No need to build DSphere.
>>> If they are to reach their full intellectual potential a million mega 
>>> brains are going to need the energy output of the entire sun, and you could 
>>> only do that with a Dyson sphere. 
>>> > No need for growing their minds exponentially either. Since they can live 
>>> > for few billion years, they can as well not hurry up. 
>>> Slowing themselves down should help with achieving longer time
>>> The faster a mind works the slower subjective time  passes, and the reverse 
>>> is also true, if you slow down a mind enough a billion years will only seem 
>>> like 10 seconds.  And the faster a mind is the more energy is needed to 
>>> operate it.
>>> > > This is pornographic level of consumption.
>>> > Why?
>>> > The gargantuan amounts of energy for single ape reminded me of a movie
>>> "La Grande Bouffe" (https en.wikipedia.org wiki La_Grande_Bouffe). It
>>> was scandalic for a while, nowadays is more or less forgotten. Somehow
>>> the title was never translated into English like it should, i.e. "Huge
>>> obnoxious eating".
>>> There is no disputing matters of taste, however it would be naïve of you to 
>>> expect that every intelligent entity in the universe has the same taste in 
>>> this regard as you do. I certainly don't.  
>>> >In case you wonder why I want to have exit doors, it is because there
>>> is no fun to being locked in the crank house with number of guys
>>> yelling how they are gods and creators of life and what not.
>>> You almost make it sound like wanting to play God is a bad thing, but I 
>>> can't think of anything that would be more fun.  I already have everything 
>>> I need to be God except for omnipotence and omniscience.
>>> .
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