On Friday 13 September 2024 at 11:47:31 UTC+12 Bruce Kellett wrote: On Fri, Sep 13, 2024 at 9:28 AM Liz R wrote:
Yes I wondered about that, but it's possible that physics isn't *intrinsically* random. No, that isn't possible. Randomness is intrinsic, and not derivable from anything else. This is the sort of thing that made me think of "oracles". What sort of physical (or mathematical) process could, at least in principle, be intrinsically random? (Rather than apparently random due to ignorance of an underlying lower-level deterministic mechanism.) An oracle that delivers the next digit in Chaitin's constant, as mentioned by Russell, might be the sort of thing - which could mean a suitable source of randomness in physics is the "universal dovetailer" or something similar. It could be based on something computable, and only appear random from our perspective - presumbly some versions of many-worlds would fit the bill. No, many-worlds is a decided failure as far as randomness is concerned. You cannot get intrinsic randomness as exhibited by quantum phenomena from a deterministic theory such as many-worlds. I thought you could get the appearance of randomness from a first-person perspective in MW? Has that been shown to not work? Also, although various attempts to show hidden variables have fallen down, it's always possible something of that sort might be involved that we haven't thought of yet. That is just a cheap let-out: "It could be something we haven't thought of yet. There are very good reason to think that intrinsic randomness cannot arise from a deterministic theory. You can get randomness from ignorance, as in classic statistical mechanics, but that is not intrinsic -- things are still deterministic if you have complete knowledge. Which is not the case in QM. Well, yes - by definition, intrinsic randomness can't arise from a deterministic theory. However, I will wait for your ideas on the types of physical or mathematical processes that could lead to intrinsic randomness before commenting on this further, as I can't get past that first hurdle yet! -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/5a0eb686-1c86-4751-8a22-a0738a5f4a75n%40googlegroups.com.
