Yes I wondered about that, but it's possible that physics isn't *intrinsically* random. It could be based on something computable, and only appear random from our perspective - presumbly some versions of many-worlds would fit the bill. Also, although various attempts to show hidden variables have fallen down, it's always possible something of that sort might be involved that we haven't thought of yet. It's also possible that time symmetry could act in that sort of way, making apparent randomness from a failure to take all the boundary conditions into account (entanglement becomes far less spooky if you allow for quantum objects not distinguishing between directions in time, for example).
On Friday 13 September 2024 at 10:39:26 UTC+12 Brent Meeker wrote: > But physics isn't computable, it includes quantum mechanics which > introduces randomness. > > Brent > > > > On 9/12/2024 3:10 PM, Liz R wrote: > > On the subject of whether consciousness is computation (or is it > "supervenes on computation" or something? Anyway...) - if it turns out that > physics is computable, that undercuts that question, in that assuming > consciousness is the product of physics, it must also be. the product of > computation (possibly at a level far below that of frain cells) > > On Tuesday 10 September 2024 at 06:14:22 UTC+12 Brent Meeker wrote: > >> >> On 9/9/2024 5:25 AM, John Clark wrote: >> >> *No. Mathematics can describe computation, but it is not computation. >> That’s why the semiconductor industry exists, software alone is not >> sufficient, in fact, software alone can’t do anything. If you actually >> want to DO something, if you want something to change over an interval of >> time, then matter is required. That's why the information in a book can't >> do anything if it's just sitting on a shelf, that information can only >> cause something to change if a person or, as we've seen very recently, an >> AI, reads it. And both the person and the AI are made of atoms. And atoms >> are physical. * >> >> *Computation involves the manipulation of information, and the minimum >> amount of energy needed to perform a calculation is greater than zero. >> Also, the amount of information that you can stuff into a volume of space >> is finite, if there is too much information then the volume turns into a >> Black Hole where the information, if it still even exists, is >> inaccessible. So information is physical and computation is a physical >> process. * >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *I generally agree with John, but I would point out that computation is a >> physical process that realizes a mathematical process. Sure it's more >> complicated because it depends on the physics, but that is incidental to >> the computation. So it's kind of the reverse of using mathematics to >> describe something. In a computational process it's the mathematics that's >> essential. That, in itself doesn't answer the question of whether >> consciousness is computation, but nerves are physiological structures whose >> essential function is transmitting information. So I would say >> consciousness originates with the evolution of nerves and eventually the >> central nervous system. I see consciousness has having several levels from >> simple detecting and reacting to immediate surroundings, to internal models >> of self versus others, to planning and projection, to language and >> abstraction. So conscious is implicitly information processing, but not >> all of it is what humans think of as being conscious, having an inner >> narrative. Brent* >> > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/972eac45-c1a3-4007-833e-04526691615dn%40googlegroups.com > > <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/972eac45-c1a3-4007-833e-04526691615dn%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> > . > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/0f620e2e-f546-45be-939c-fce3a8bf12f5n%40googlegroups.com.
