I got to the first paragraph in your post and pretty much quit reading. I do not claim that all MVP's are Microsoft wh0res. I simply don't claim that. In fact, I have posted things in direct opposition to that claim. If you are going to make such blatant mis-characterizations, then I am not going to respond to the rest of your post, which I can only assume you will then take as "proof" that you are right or that I "cannot make rational arguments" or whatever other non-sense you want to claim.
"Ethical god"? Please. I have, nor ever will claim to be an "ethical god". I have my set of ethics that I follow, period. And I did not bring up this whole point of ethics on this list. I posted an email about "Migrating from GroupWise 6.5" that then degenerated into this mess. Thank your buddy Ed for that. And about this claim that I am not following my own ethical guidelines. Hey, there may be some truth to it. I haven't seen any proof from what miserable evidence you have supplied, but I am more than willing to admit that I may not live up to every single bit of the ethical code that I have. Know what? It doesn't matter. An ethical code is the ceiling, it is what everyone should aspire to, but it is not expected that everyone will ALWAYS actually achieve every single little detail. That's not what ethics is about. The laws are the floor, the ethical code the ceiling, aspire to get as close to the ceiling as possible. All I can say is that I try my absolute hardest, every day, to meet my own ethical standards. Do I succeed every day? No, but I TRY. Finally, just because the officer that tickets you for speeding murdered his wife last night doesn't mean that you DIDN'T break the law for speeding. > I have no credibility because I don't say BOO? Ok then...BOO > > Do I get credibility now? > > In all seriousness, I'm not the one who claims that all MVP's are > Microsoft Whores or that MVP's are doing anything wrong in their world. > Since, you are the one that brought up the point of ethics, I assumed it > was you that were claiming to be the "ethical god" here. Perhaps your > pointing out that you don't accept gifts because of your ethics was > where I went astray. > > As for the litmus test you are under, I suggest you read your own > website. YOU are working for that company, and YOU are the one that > should be upholding ALL the virtues of that company, not me, not ED, not > TONY, heck, not even DON; only you! You don't like what your company > puts up as a litmus test, then I suggest you find a job elsewhere. > > One thing still stands, you still aren't drumming up business in this > list when you "explode" on potential customers. I hope you never decide > to come calling on my account, I'm sure your boss would like to know the > reason I refused you a meeting was because you don't know when to shut > up. > > As for the name-calling that goes on this list, I suggest you shut up, > sit back, and learn. Sure, Ed, Tony, and Don (and a few more) can > certainly be grating on someone's nerves, but I will promise you, they > know more about Exchange Systems then you could wish to know in a > lifetime. While I don't choose to instruct in the same way these people > do, I certainly understand where they get to the point and call someone > an idiot for not looking up an issue like "How do I turn on my computer" > before posting it to the list. > > Remember, the people on this list are under ZERO obligation to help you, > or anyone else. When they do choose to help, they can save your butt > more times then not. But they WILL NOT, nor should the be expected to, > put up with damn fools that ask a question that would be answered faster > if that person would have taken the time to research the question > themselves. > > Sure, I don't like being called Lazy, but I promise, it took only once > from ED to make me understand that I better research the hell out of > something before I bring it here. Even then, I don't expect Ed, or the > rest, to be nice when it's a stupid ass mistake I made myself and have > no one to blame but myself. > > You don't like the people in this list, change to a different list. But > don't complain about the free service you get here, just because you > don't like it when someone calls you a stupid fool for not doing your > homework before you got here. > > > > Bob Sadler > > -----Original Message----- > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 10:51 AM > To: Exchange Discussions > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics > > > First, you have no credibility on the point. You find the phrase "I > finish them (fights)" offensive but not someone being called a "liar", > "stupid", "idiot", "wife beater". You simply have zaro credibility. > > Second, as for your other two points, our customers and potential > customers are made well aware of any and all potential conflicts of > interest. We practice full disclosure. In addition, meeting with a > vendor to talk about their new products is in no way even CLOSE to > accepting a title or gift from said vendor. But, there is no point to > even debating this with you because you are never going to see it > because you are going to deny the obvious. Yes, I have to deal with > vendors just like everyone else in this industry. It is a fact of life. > But, I don't have to like it and no, generally, I almost NEVER meet with > vendors and when I do, it is for specific purposes, I get in, get the > information and get out. > > Finally, you have obviously shown your bias by claiming that I claim to > be the "all ethical" sort. And to my knowledge, I have no "ethics test" > that I have created. This is a blatant mis-characterization and exposes > your bias. I am not, nor ever will be "all ethical" and "holier than > thou". I have *different* ethics apparently than many on this board, but > I have never claimed to be perfect or that my ethics are the end all, be > all. Yes, I have paid to attend conventions, I have paid to be a > Microsoft "partner". In some strict ethical vaccuum those may be > considered unethical, but this is the real world. And besides that, > there is a clear, bright line between paying a vendor to attend a > convention and accepting a pure gift from a vendor. That bright line is > what I have been talking about, but you are never going to see it > because you will never admit to the obvious and just want to pick a > fight. > > And yes, for all of you out there, I am nearly certain that, in my > youth, I accepted direct gifts from vendors. I cannot recall any > particular occassion, but I'm willing to bet that it probably occurred. > And guess what? I stopped that long, long, long ago because IT IS WRONG. > > So, to sum it up, you have no credibility that you have been "offended" > in any way because there have been lots more offensive stuff said that > you have not said boo about. And, you are in self-denial about the > DISTINCT difference between accepting a pure gift from a vendor and > PAYING that vendor to attend a convention, etc. Here's a hint. One costs > you money, the other doesn't. > > > I am not "quibbling" with what you said, I'm instead taking offense at > > > what you said. You see, you can't claim to be the "all ethical" sort=20 > > you want, if you can't even pass the ethics test of your own making. =20 > > I didn't post any of those points on your website, someone from YOUR=20 > > company did, and you are the one claiming to hold them near and dear. > >=20 > > How interesting that you choose to respond ONLY to one point, and then > > > make irrelevant statements about people calling you names. > >=20 > > Since I didn't call you names sir, perhaps you should go back and=20 > > re-read the whole message. It's not that I consider you a liar, or=20 > > that you are stupid. I now consider you incapable of having any type=20 > > of intelligent discussion based on the fact that you choose to ignore=20 > > 2/3rds of what was posted, or should I just assume that you chose not=20 > > to discuss those points because you couldn't keep your "I have my=20 > > Ethics" argument and all this would be moot? > >=20 > > Speaking of MOOT, can anyone tell me what top 10 classic rock single=20 > > contains the word "MOOT"? > >=20 > >=20 > >=20 > > Bob Sadler > >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Greg Deckler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, December 22, 2003 9:50 AM > > To: Exchange Discussions > > Subject: RE: Greg's Utterly Fascinating Views on Ethics > >=20 > >=20 > > So you are going to quibble with things that "I" said? You people are=20 > > so whacked out that it is utterly incomprehensible. So where were you=20 > > when I was called a "liar" or a "wife beater" or "stupid" or "idiot"=20 > > or that I "starve children". All of that is OK in your whacky bizarro=20 > > world, but explaining to someone that if you start a fight (in email=20 > > for Christ's > > sake) that I will finish that fight. Oh that is TERRIBLE! How could > you > > SAY such a thing. Never mind the "liar", "stupid", "idiot" stuff, > THAT, > > sir, is uncalled for. > >=20 > > Bob, you amaze me. > >=20 > > > You know, I'm just as happy to NOT read this dribble, but when=20 > > > someone > >=20 > > > points out so wonderfully how ethical they are, and we can all go=20 > > > to=3D20 www.infonition.com/ethics.shtml to prove it, then someone = > like > > > > me just > >=20 > > > might go there and read, and low and behold what is it we find? = > =3D20 > > > Well, this character Greg, wants us all to believe his "ethics" > are=3D20 > > > without question. So, let's take a look at his ethics page and > see=3D20 > > > what he's supposed to be doing. > > >=3D20 > > > First, Greg's point of vendor conflict is answered here: > > >=3D20 > > > To never accept compensation from vendors for recommending =3D > > products=3D3D20 > > >=3D20 > > > One must ask then Greg, have you ever been to a seminar,=20 > > >conference,=3D20 or LUNCH where the vendor presenting paid for the=20 > > >meal, the snacks,=3D20 the coffee? =3D20 > > > Second, Greg's list of ethics claim: > > >=3D20 > > > To disclose any and all influences that may affect our=3D20 > > > recommendations=3D3D20 > > >=3D20 > > > Greg, does this mean that if I were to speak to you over the > phone,=3D20 > > > you would tell me just how many times your Cisco, Microsoft, = > Bay=3D20 > > > Networks, etc., Rep. has called? Or are you saying that you > never=3D20 > > > meet with the vendors to discuss how their products can benefit > your=3D20 > > > customers? Do you ever read trade magazines that discuss the use > of=3D20 > > > one vendors products over another? Will you then tell me all = > the=3D20 > > > magazines you read, what date, publication, page number, etc? > > >=3D20 > > > Third, Greg's list goes on to say: > > >=3D20 > > > To be fair and accurate when resolving disputes, problems or > issues=3D20 > > > [and] To conduct ourselves in a professional manner at all > times=3D3D20 > > >=3D20 > > > One must ask then Greg, exactly how does your statement of: > "Wrong.=3D20 > > > You brought it up by throwing stones my way. I don't pick fights, > I=3D20 > > > finish them." work into these statements? > > >=3D20 > > > This is just what I don't need in a vendor. Someone who believes > he's > >=20 > > > always right, and if he is going to have a fight with his=20 > > >customers,=3D20 HE'S going to finish it. I can see now why people=20 > > >flock to your=3D20 organization Greg. =3D20 > > > The point is, don't say something matters a great deal to you, > and=3D20 > > > then give this list plenty of examples showing that apparently = > it=3D20 > > > doesn't. You want to wave a flag around and say "I have ethics" > and=3D20 > > > yet not live by those same ethics, then be prepared to be > inundated=3D20 > > > with the onslaught. > > >=3D20 > > > I would trust Ed, Tom, Tony, and even Don, further then I would > trust=3D20 > > > someone yelling about how ethical they are and at the same time > say=3D20 > > > they'll finish any fight. > > >=3D20 > > > It's time to throttle back now greg, and realize this. You are = > a=3D20 > > > Sales Manager for a company that apparently you are supposed to > be=3D20 > > > drumming up business for. Just how much business do you think > you=3D20 > > > have generated on this list after acting in the manner you did? > > >=3D20 > > > Bob Sadler > > >=3D20 > > > -----Original Message----- > >=20 > > _________________________________________________________________ > > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > > Web Interface:=20 > > = > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3D3Dexchange&text_mo > > de=3D3D=3D > > & > > lang=3D3Denglish > > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > _________________________________________________________________ > List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm > Web Interface: > http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=3Dexchange&text_mode=3D= > & > lang=3Denglish > To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _________________________________________________________________ List posting FAQ: http://www.swinc.com/resource/exch_faq.htm Web Interface: http://intm-dl.sparklist.com/cgi-bin/lyris.pl?enter=exchange&text_mode=&lang=english To unsubscribe: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Exchange List admin: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
