Chris, I have to ask you; how many race cars have you built for sale to customers? I have built & sold over 20 cars & while I agree with you that you can build a roller for $15K at that price you will NOT be making any kind of profit. So what this means is that Mike, Jay, Don C, Don H are not making any profit unless you want to count the $1 we pay ourselves /hour of labor.
To make a profit at $15K for rollers you have to build them in quantities of about 20 at a time & F500 will not support that kind of investment. The most I ever built in 1 year was 6 cars & that nearly killed me. Thanks ... Jay Novak -----Original Message----- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chris Reinhardt Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 7:39 AM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal I don't agree Chuck, I think , sorry, I know, you can build a F5 roller for $15k and drop a motor in complete for another $5k or less. There's more complexity in a DSR which equals more expense..... CR Chuck Voboril <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Yup, Chris, that's right on the price, and it is worth every penny of it. Beautifullly made. And the the dry sump is quiite a few grand more by itself, but out of the 9 R-1 MC motors that came with the purchase of Malloy and were run w/out dry sumps, 7 are blown up now. Some had stock pans, some had special pans. Practically anything you do to a F500 will raise the price. Also, the fact that most, if not all, of the F500 mfg are not making a true living at it is one reason you are not paying $25k more per F500. if ever there was a true US-based race car cottage industry, this is it! Chuck Voboril >From: Chris Reinhardt >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal >Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 04:44:46 -0700 (PDT) > > The F1000 also has a $32,995 sticker, and that's a roller..... > > CR > >Chuck Voboril wrote: > Careful with the 13"s, the 10's are cheaper now than 13's and will >probably >stay that way since I have not heard of any eventual radial replacement of >10's as there is planned for 13's. > >20.5x7x13 and 22x8.2x13 radials are being tested further this year by >Hoosier (FA sizes already released) and GY plans to replace almost all 13" >bias plies with radials also. > >BTW, Isn't FF1600 also considering a 600cc or similar MC unit as a >compatible alternative to the Ford 1600? What happened to that? > > > >I looked at a Phoenix F1000 today having its wheels aligned > >-that's a car I would like to be in if I were a young lion. > >Not too expensive to run, hopefully. >By the rules, it has a stock internal R1 motor (except for the drysump, >which is allowed). > >There doesn't look like any more fiberglass or CF, not any more frame tubes >to notch and weld in the construction. > >It has F1 styling like the Stohr. > >The F500 sidepods will keep F500/600 looking...well, F500/600 and a bit >safer in close combat. >A good thing for those aggressive young drivers :-> > >-so what's the actual difference from a F500 with a stock bike motor to a >F1000 with a stock bike motor like the Phoenix? > >The F1000 has: > >Shocks and coil springs >13" wheels >IRS >Wings >Less sidepod > >Underside aero allowances appear to be effectively the same as they are >F500. > > >Chuck > > > > > > >From: Chris Reinhardt > >Reply-To: [email protected] > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: RE: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal > >Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:40:03 -0700 (PDT) > > > > Yes it got through, can Jim send it to eformulacar??? > > > >CR > > > >John Walbran wrote: -----Original Message----- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 2:15 PM > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal > > > > > >I am not sure whether or not this e mail is getting through to the class >so > >I will send it again. If you have already recd it I apologize for the > >duplicate. > > > > > >In regards to the survivial and growth of the F500 class some major >changes > >have to occur. I agree it should be a 600cc motorcycle engine with 6 >speed > >sequential gearbox. I agree with Jack Walbran that the dyno work should >be > >done so as the speed performance is in line with where we are now with >the > >493/494 if not a little stronger. Clints 493 is running down top run off > >Fords in a straight line. I would also like to see a spec shock spring >and > >I > >would take Jacks suggestion one step further and allow 13" wheels. This > >would > >bring the Goodyear compounds back into play. The cars need to look larger > >to > >be more appealing to bring in new drivers, and some of us are growing > >sideways > >and need some more room. All of the larger Formula cars, FSCCA , F1000, >FC > >are > >all in the $50,000.00 range. We need a car that is not much more than >what > >we > >are paying now with no wings as an affordable entry level car and still >be > >the > >best bang for the buck. Our Invaders were over $20,000.00. Of the 7 Mike > >sold, 6 were to us. 5 are for sale now and I am not getting any calls >which > >is > >why we are having this discussion. There is no interest from new drivers. > >There was a lot of talk on Apex concerning the F1000 because the cost > >immediately went too high and eliminated lots of prospective buyers thus > >the > >need for an affordable wingless formula car. Our present manufacturers > >without > >too many changes could make these changes and do it affordable. A 600cc > >Honda > >will fit in the Invader with only changing the rear shock location. 13" > >wheels > >and tires are only 1 or 2 inches more in overall circumference to our 19" > >tire. > > > >Having been active in this class since 1989, even though it is the >biggest > >bang > >for the buck, it has not drawn enough new participants to keep the class > >alive > >and the reasons for that, as I stated above, the cars are a little too > >small, > >you cannot shift them and they are extremely high maintenance vehicles. >We > >work on them constantly while at the track. I have been asked thousands >of > >times, why are you guys always working on your cars? A massed produced > >motorcycle engine, transmission chain drive to a solid axle would make it >a > >lot > >less tedious during the weekends, maybe we would even make it to the >social > >for > >a cold one. > > > >Going along the F1000 rules, any 600cc motorcycle engine can be used in > >stock > >configuration with limited modifications, to the oil pan for clearance > >purposes > >and an open air intake system. I agree the dry sump system is the best >but > >I > >presently have a Dsports with a modified oil pan for wet sump and he has > >run > >it > >for 2 years with no problem and just received brand new Stohr F1000 with >a > >Billet oil pan wet sump also. > > > >Right now you can only buy Formula Vee or Formula 500 for under >$20,000.00. > >Formula Fords are over $30,000.00 and we go faster than most of them and > >then > >you jump up to the $50,000.00 range. If we could get a car as fast as the > >top > >F500 guys are running, which is faster than most of the Fords this >packaged > >with a low cost mass produced motorcycle motor, the option of a paddle > >shifter and no CVT to work on you would attract a lot of newcomers who > >cannot > >afford $50,000.00 for what is available now. > > > >Projecting out a few years I see only these Formula Classes at the >runoffs, > >Formula Vee, this new class F5/6?, F1000, Formula SCCA, FC and FA. >Without > >some major changes you will be racing against 1, 2 possibly 3 other guys >at > >regional events only. I have always been a strong supporter of this class > >but > >there is no fun in it when you are only racing one other person. At our > >first > >2 winter nationals we had 3 starters at Sebring and 4 starters at > >Homestead. > >These numbers speak for themselves. At our first regional at Sebring >there > >were only 3 F500s, 2 of which were Dolphins. The 3 F500s out qualified >the > >Spec Racers but they split started them because there were 45 of them so > >they > >put us in the back with the 6 Formula Vees. The spec racers are doing > >something right. These cars are over $30,000.00 and are a lot slower than > >ours > >but continue to attract new people. All they do is gas and go all >weekend. > >For $30,000.00 I would rather be driving an F600. And by the way, the >young > >driver who works with us , Matt Strand, did pass all 45 of the Spec >Racers > >to > >get the overall win in just his second race. > > > >As for advertising we have advertised heavily in print as well as e > >magazine > >s > >and got little response from the karters. They were not interested in >F500 > >once they turned 16. If they could afford it they went into wings and > >things > >not 500s. All this being said does not end what is presently in place. If > >those who want to run what we have now 493/494 CVT thats ok too, but lets > >try > >something new. The present package only appeals to a few. We need to > >attract > >new drivers. And remember, nothing changes if nothing changes. > > > >P.S. Check out www.formulajedi.com its a F600 class in the U.K. > > > >Jim Elder > >Dolphin Motorsports > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > > >--------------------------------- >Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. --------------------------------- Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.18/734 - Release Date: 3/26/2007 2:31 PM -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. 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