Chuck, I think the difference between most of the DSR's and the F500's is that ALL, again, ALL of the F500 builders do it more as a hobby or part time, as compared to doing it as a business for the DSR's and having to feed their families. I think If Jay, or Q counted on the F500 sales to feed their families, #1 they would allot skinnier, and the cars would cost more. Bernard as you know does it as a hobby, or side business.... I think your wrong about the limited slip though, remember that if you use an IRS rear, both rear wheels are on the ground when you turn in, either one rear wheel has to loose traction, or the car goes straight!!! If a rear tire breaks loose, that defeats the purpose of the IRS. CR
Chuck Voboril <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Making a profit in a business is just more than the basic car. One has to somehow pay for design and development time, dealing with customer setup, tuning, and plain old complaints, and finally maintaining an inventory and selling spare parts to customers. Bookkeeping and managing employees needs to be paid for also. To make a true profit in a business (not a hobby), one has to pay for every miniute someone works in the business. Sure a DSR should cost more-but not 2x or 3x the price of a F500. A DSR has more bodywork, IRS, and shocks and a slightly larger motor which is about all that distinguishes it from a F500. A F1000, on the other hand, is just your KBS with a slightly bigger motor, IRS, and shocks-if you are wishful enough to run it w/out a drysump :-> One could probably build a rolling F1000 chassis for about 15% more than a F500 chassis. I've spoken with Chris Barnard quite a few times about the DSR that he designed and was selling in kit form, the Kokopelli. He says that the IRS he designed for it was just as cheap as the solid rear he developed (limited slip aside-which one does not really need). His is a very good design which ran fast in NER for awhile-he is out of that busness now and back to making a positive cash flow welding staircases and putting up steel buildings. Chuck >From: "Jay Novak" >Reply-To: [email protected] >To: >Subject: RE: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal >Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2007 09:55:10 -0400 > >Chris, I have to ask you; how many race cars have you built for sale to >customers? I have built & sold over 20 cars & while I agree with you that >you can build a roller for $15K at that price you will NOT be making any >kind of profit. So what this means is that Mike, Jay, Don C, Don H are not >making any profit unless you want to count the $1 we pay ourselves /hour of >labor. > >To make a profit at $15K for rollers you have to build them in quantities >of >about 20 at a time & F500 will not support that kind of investment. The >most I ever built in 1 year was 6 cars & that nearly killed me. > >Thanks ... Jay Novak > > >-----Original Message----- >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Chris >Reinhardt >Sent: Wednesday, March 28, 2007 7:39 AM >To: [email protected] >Subject: RE: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal > > > I don't agree Chuck, I think , sorry, I know, you can build a F5 roller >for >$15k and drop a motor in complete for another $5k or less. There's more >complexity in a DSR which equals more expense..... > > CR > >Chuck Voboril wrote: > Yup, Chris, that's right on the price, and it is worth every penny of >it. >Beautifullly made. > >And the the dry sump is quiite a few grand more by itself, but out of the 9 >R-1 MC motors that came with the purchase of Malloy and were run w/out dry >sumps, 7 are blown up now. Some had stock pans, some had special pans. > > > >Practically anything you do to a F500 will raise the price. > >Also, the fact that most, if not all, of the F500 mfg are not making a true >living at it is one reason you are not paying $25k more per F500. > >if ever there was a true US-based race car cottage industry, this is it! > > > >Chuck Voboril > > > > > > >From: Chris Reinhardt > >Reply-To: [email protected] > >To: [email protected] > >Subject: RE: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal > >Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2007 04:44:46 -0700 (PDT) > > > > The F1000 also has a $32,995 sticker, and that's a roller..... > > > > CR > > > >Chuck Voboril wrote: > > Careful with the 13"s, the 10's are cheaper now than 13's and will > >probably > >stay that way since I have not heard of any eventual radial replacement >of > >10's as there is planned for 13's. > > > >20.5x7x13 and 22x8.2x13 radials are being tested further this year by > >Hoosier (FA sizes already released) and GY plans to replace almost all >13" > >bias plies with radials also. > > > >BTW, Isn't FF1600 also considering a 600cc or similar MC unit as a > >compatible alternative to the Ford 1600? What happened to that? > > > > > > > >I looked at a Phoenix F1000 today having its wheels aligned > > > >-that's a car I would like to be in if I were a young lion. > > > >Not too expensive to run, hopefully. > >By the rules, it has a stock internal R1 motor (except for the drysump, > >which is allowed). > > > >There doesn't look like any more fiberglass or CF, not any more frame >tubes > >to notch and weld in the construction. > > > >It has F1 styling like the Stohr. > > > >The F500 sidepods will keep F500/600 looking...well, F500/600 and a bit > >safer in close combat. > >A good thing for those aggressive young drivers :-> > > > >-so what's the actual difference from a F500 with a stock bike motor to a > >F1000 with a stock bike motor like the Phoenix? > > > >The F1000 has: > > > >Shocks and coil springs > >13" wheels > >IRS > >Wings > >Less sidepod > > > >Underside aero allowances appear to be effectively the same as they are > >F500. > > > > > >Chuck > > > > > > > > > > > > >From: Chris Reinhardt > > >Reply-To: [email protected] > > >To: [email protected] > > >Subject: RE: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal > > >Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2007 19:40:03 -0700 (PDT) > > > > > > Yes it got through, can Jim send it to eformulacar??? > > > > > >CR > > > > > >John Walbran wrote: -----Original Message----- > > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2007 2:15 PM > > >To: [email protected] > > >Subject: [F500] F500/F600 Proposal > > > > > > > > >I am not sure whether or not this e mail is getting through to the >class > >so > > >I will send it again. If you have already recd it I apologize for the > > >duplicate. > > > > > > > > >In regards to the survivial and growth of the F500 class some major > >changes > > >have to occur. I agree it should be a 600cc motorcycle engine with 6 > >speed > > >sequential gearbox. I agree with Jack Walbran that the dyno work should > >be > > >done so as the speed performance is in line with where we are now with > >the > > >493/494 if not a little stronger. Clints 493 is running down top run >off > > >Fords in a straight line. I would also like to see a spec shock spring > >and > > >I > > >would take Jacks suggestion one step further and allow 13" wheels. >This > > >would > > >bring the Goodyear compounds back into play. The cars need to look >larger > > >to > > >be more appealing to bring in new drivers, and some of us are growing > > >sideways > > >and need some more room. All of the larger Formula cars, FSCCA , F1000, > >FC > > >are > > >all in the $50,000.00 range. We need a car that is not much more than > >what > > >we > > >are paying now with no wings as an affordable entry level car and still > >be > > >the > > >best bang for the buck. Our Invaders were over $20,000.00. Of the 7 >Mike > > >sold, 6 were to us. 5 are for sale now and I am not getting any calls > >which > > >is > > >why we are having this discussion. There is no interest from new >drivers. > > >There was a lot of talk on Apex concerning the F1000 because the cost > > >immediately went too high and eliminated lots of prospective buyers >thus > > >the > > >need for an affordable wingless formula car. Our present manufacturers > > >without > > >too many changes could make these changes and do it affordable. A 600cc > > >Honda > > >will fit in the Invader with only changing the rear shock location. 13" > > >wheels > > >and tires are only 1 or 2 inches more in overall circumference to our >19" > > >tire. > > > > > >Having been active in this class since 1989, even though it is the > >biggest > > >bang > > >for the buck, it has not drawn enough new participants to keep the >class > > >alive > > >and the reasons for that, as I stated above, the cars are a little too > > >small, > > >you cannot shift them and they are extremely high maintenance vehicles. > >We > > >work on them constantly while at the track. I have been asked thousands > >of > > >times, why are you guys always working on your cars? A massed >produced > > >motorcycle engine, transmission chain drive to a solid axle would make >it > >a > > >lot > > >less tedious during the weekends, maybe we would even make it to the > >social > > >for > > >a cold one. > > > > > >Going along the F1000 rules, any 600cc motorcycle engine can be used in > > >stock > > >configuration with limited modifications, to the oil pan for clearance > > >purposes > > >and an open air intake system. I agree the dry sump system is the best > >but > > >I > > >presently have a Dsports with a modified oil pan for wet sump and he >has > > >run > > >it > > >for 2 years with no problem and just received brand new Stohr F1000 >with > >a > > >Billet oil pan wet sump also. > > > > > >Right now you can only buy Formula Vee or Formula 500 for under > >$20,000.00. > > >Formula Fords are over $30,000.00 and we go faster than most of them >and > > >then > > >you jump up to the $50,000.00 range. If we could get a car as fast as >the > > >top > > >F500 guys are running, which is faster than most of the Fords this > >packaged > > >with a low cost mass produced motorcycle motor, the option of a paddle > > >shifter and no CVT to work on you would attract a lot of newcomers who > > >cannot > > >afford $50,000.00 for what is available now. > > > > > >Projecting out a few years I see only these Formula Classes at the > >runoffs, > > >Formula Vee, this new class F5/6?, F1000, Formula SCCA, FC and FA. > >Without > > >some major changes you will be racing against 1, 2 possibly 3 other >guys > >at > > >regional events only. I have always been a strong supporter of this >class > > >but > > >there is no fun in it when you are only racing one other person. At our > > >first > > >2 winter nationals we had 3 starters at Sebring and 4 starters at > > >Homestead. > > >These numbers speak for themselves. At our first regional at Sebring > >there > > >were only 3 F500s, 2 of which were Dolphins. The 3 F500s out qualified > >the > > >Spec Racers but they split started them because there were 45 of them >so > > >they > > >put us in the back with the 6 Formula Vees. The spec racers are doing > > >something right. These cars are over $30,000.00 and are a lot slower >than > > >ours > > >but continue to attract new people. All they do is gas and go all > >weekend. > > >For $30,000.00 I would rather be driving an F600. And by the way, the > >young > > >driver who works with us , Matt Strand, did pass all 45 of the Spec > >Racers > > >to > > >get the overall win in just his second race. > > > > > >As for advertising we have advertised heavily in print as well as e > > >magazine > > >s > > >and got little response from the karters. They were not interested in > >F500 > > >once they turned 16. If they could afford it they went into wings and > > >things > > >not 500s. All this being said does not end what is presently in place. >If > > >those who want to run what we have now 493/494 CVT thats ok too, but >lets > > >try > > >something new. The present package only appeals to a few. We need to > > >attract > > >new drivers. And remember, nothing changes if nothing changes. > > > > > >P.S. Check out www.formulajedi.com its a F600 class in the U.K. > > > > > >Jim Elder > > >Dolphin Motorsports > > > > > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > > >Don't get soaked. Take a quick peek at the forecast > > > with theYahoo! Search weather shortcut. > > > > > > > >--------------------------------- > >Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. > > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > > > >--------------------------------- >Food fight? Enjoy some healthy debate >in the Yahoo! Answers Food & Drink Q&A. > >-- >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.18/734 - Release Date: 3/26/2007 >2:31 PM > >-- >No virus found in this outgoing message. >Checked by AVG Free Edition. >Version: 7.5.446 / Virus Database: 268.18.18/734 - Release Date: 3/26/2007 >2:31 PM --------------------------------- We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list. ________________________________ FormulaCar Magazine - A Proud Supporter of Formula 500 The Official Publication of Junior Formula Car Racing Subscribe Today! www.formulacarmag.com or 519-624-2003 _________________________________ _______________________________________________ F500 mailing list - [email protected] To unsubscribe or change options please visit: http://f500.org/mailman/listinfo/f500 *** Please, DO NOT send unsubscribe requests to the mailing list! ***
