--- In [email protected], Peter Sutphen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > --- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Peter Sutphen > > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Much of these metal gymnastics regarding > > enlightenment > > > and suffering come about because of a foundational > > > misconception regarding enlightenment that > > necessarily > > > must come about when understood within the > > constructs > > > of waking state. The "reason" why there is no > > > suffering in enlightenment is that there is no > > > individuality there to suffer. Pain occurs, but > > there > > > is nobody home to suffer. Usually this is followed > > up > > > with, so an enlightened person feels no pain? The > > > question is based on an individuality being > > > enlightened. This is incorrect. There is no > > > enlightenment for the ego. "You" don't get > > > enlightened. > > > -Peter > > > > > > > Pain is an experience that comes with identification > > as the body. > > Sensation has to do with the senses which are > > functions of nature. > > There are senses but they are not you, they are like > > distinct > > operating systems that the individual awareness uses > > as the > > interface between manifest and unmanifest. Any > > person feels pain to > > the degree that they "believe" they are the body. > > The question is, > > just what "level" of awareness is considered to be > > enlightened? Is > > it a state where no personal self is experienced, is > > it a state > > where the self is always seen as separate from > > activity? Is it a > > state where all experiences "as" a body cease to > > exist? Is -Peter > > enlightened? Is MMY enlightened? Is Guru Dev > > enlightened? Is > > everyone enlightened to some degree or is there a > > boundary that one > > must cross to first have total enlightenment, or any > > degree of > > enlightenment? > > > > So many questions that haven't yet been answered. > > > > Rick Carlstrom > > Yes, time for cookies and milk to help relax the mind. > There are no answers until the experience is present. > Then it's obvious about suffering. There is no > suffering when there's no "you" to experience the pain > (emotional or physical). I'm sure when Krishna got > shot with an arrow in the foot, he hopped around > yelling the sanskrit equivalent of "Oh shit does that > hurt!" But he didn't suffer one wit. > -Peter (scatologically challenged) >
You see, now this is the problem. Oh yeah, Krishna was hopping around yelling in pain because I guess his body was doing the body thing but at another level there was no suffering because...well because there was no "him" to experience the pain. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying this line, it seems quite useless. It's similar to when people say "you are already enlightened but you just don't know it". In your example, why couldn't Krishna not have experienced any pain because it was the body that was shot and not Krishna. This idea that nothing changes on the physical plane, there is only a shift in awareness and life just goes on as it did before, removes any reason for the existence of the body. Oh it's just the unmanifest getting bored and then creating bodies that reexist over and over again causing the umanifest to experience all kinds of hells because of the play of the mind and the belief in an individual self. Then one day there is a realization that there is no "self" and la di da everything continues as before, the body keeps hopping around in pain but whatever it was that thought it was the body is now no longer around, so there is pain but no pain. Get it? No of course you don't get it because any attempt to understand it is just the monkey mind doing what it always does. What a crock. This is an intelligent universe born out of intelligence itself and the shocking experience of a "no self" state does not render the sequential rhyme and reason of intelligence creating itself null and void. There is a reason for a reexisting body that has a personal karmic record that exists in time and a "no self" experience does not make those connections disappear and your "self" still exists to the degree that the Karmic record still exists. A body hopping around in pain is a picture of the Self still entangled in the self. Milk and cookies my ass. Rick Carlstrom To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
