I agree with you and Hagen completely about what you are seeing in the Muslim community in Europe. I have no reason to doubt your experience. The disagreement comes in blaming the Muslim religion for this state of affairs. There is nothing in the religion per se that brings about the things you describe--on the contrary. But there is something in the interpretation of it that serves those who promulgate it in this form.
We are biological computers and can be programmed in all kinds of ways. I have seen how such things come about in the black community here in the States due to the vantage point of a thirty year marriage to a black man. It's a matter of social engineering and it's not difficult to do. Religion itself is not the culprit. It is a tool only and can be sharpened to do a number of different kinds of jobs. Here, as anywhere, I ask myself "cui bono?" Asking that question gets especially my American friends all shook up, and they think there's something wrong with me for asking. That attitude is incomprehensible to the Chinese--and I've noticed that Europeans, too, think Americans somewhat naive when it comes to politics. But again, if they are naive, look to how and what they are taught in their history classes. 9/11 has been a wake-up call in that regard. a --- Irmeli Mattsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Angela! > > I also know personally some Muslims or former > Muslims, who have come > as refugees to Finland, and they are truly fine > people. E.g. I have > learned to know a conductor from Afghanistan, to > whom I'm hiring an > apartment. I don't perceive any serious defects in > his reasoning. > During the years I have also hired apartments to > many kinds of > Muslims. And I have seen severe domestic > violence.The Muslim men are > allowed to beat their wifes. The women are > practically always very > submissive, fearful.They don't speak to me, even if > I'm a woman. > > Even the man interviewed in TV, I described earlier > seemed to be a > decent human being. However there were glaring > defects in his > reasoning concerning those matters.In other areas of > life he probably > would do better. > Strong religious beliefs makes it almost impossible > to think clearly, > because then you would need to start questioning the > ultimate truths > of the doctrine.The same problem is in other > religions. Although > questioning is in them usually easier. The sanctions > of doing it are > not so horrifying. > > Irmeli > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Angela > Mailander > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Yes, Irmeli, I have discussed female mutilation > with > > these gentlemen. They are no longer young. Let's > > see, they were in their early twenties in 1982, so > > they are now pushing fifty. They are all > intelligent, > > kind, and spiritually inclined men who appear to > > respect women. At least, they respect me very > much. > > I was their teacher, and they still think of me > that > > way, which is a little weird from my point of > view. > > > > So it must be the case that not all Muslims are > stupid > > and bigoted. a > > > > > > > > --- Irmeli Mattsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Those Muslim's I described I have not met > > > personally. I was referring > > > to interviews I have seen on TV or read from a > > > newspaper or magazine. > > > And every single time I have perceived errors in > > > their conceptual > > > thinking. > > > > > > Most recent was an interview of a Muslim > spiritual > > > leader in Finland. > > > He was considered to be very moderate in his > > > thinking. > > > He explained a lot about what Muslim women are > > > allowed to do, and what > > > not, and why their community controls so much > their > > > behaviour. He > > > explained how this actually benefits and > protects > > > the women. He also > > > said that men and women are equal. > > > Then the interviewer asked about the female > genital > > > mutilation. The > > > man told he does not accept it. Then the > interviewer > > > said that it is > > > done here in Finland also. The man admitted it. > The > > > interviewer asked > > > then what he has done to stop this practise. He > > > answered: I'm not the > > > guard of my brother. > > > > > > What kind of logic is this? He doesn't guard his > > > brothers, but he says > > > he guards his sisters to protect them. But > actually > > > allows the most > > > terrible cruelty being done to girls, because he > > > does not guard what > > > the Muslim community does to their girls, even > if he > > > does not accept > > > this doing. > > > > > > This is truly convoluted reasoning. In every > > > interview so far I have > > > perceived some similar sort fundamental errors > in > > > their conceptual > > > reasoning. > > > > > > Did you ever discuss these kinds of matters with > > > those young men? > > > > > > Irmeli > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
