Comments interleaved: **
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, grate.swan <no_re...@...> wrote: > > Marek, > > Do you hold out any probability that Shad has something useful to say, > some insightful life experience to share? **snip Certainly. However, so far on this issue he has spoken in terms that my skinhead clients, tattooed from head to ankles with images and symbols of racial hatred, would be quick to endorse. That is not to say that L.Shaddai would participate in the same acts of violence that those individuals feel is the logical confirmation and necessary next step in holding those beliefs, but on the spectrum of racial tolerance/intolerance his expressed views are clearly racist. ** To answer yes, is certainly > NOT equivalent to i) believing everything he says is useful or valid, > and 2) agreement with his views, and 3) that some of his views are not > reprehensible to you. > > If you hold out at least some small probability that he has something > useful to say, some insightful life experience to share, then do you > hold any glimmer of hope that some open, fully listening" dialogue may > bear at least some fruit? **snip Yes. But again, L.Shaddai in these exchanges has inferred facts regarding me and my experience for which he has no evidence, other than, once again, his prejudices. My comments were based on what L.Shaddai said, not on any baseless speculation as to why he said them. He undoubtedly has some history and training that has reinforced his prejudices, but as Edg has pointed out, we all have such histories and training; the important thing is to recognize it in our personality and work to overcome it. That is only, of course, if you feel that racism is a problem that needs to be addressed in your own personality, rather than a problem the "blacks" (or any identified "others") have to rectify within the parameters that you approve so you can feel more comfortable around them. ** > > The Bush administration was strongly adverse to dialogue with people > with whom they felt had reprehensible views. Progress on world issues > during this reign was negligible if not negative, in my view. This is > in stark contrast to the Obama administration which has instructed it > s most senior diplomats to first listen intently, and not start out > dictating what the other party should do or feel. If Byron Katie has > any validity, then believing in "shoulds" is weak and unproductive > thinking. > **snip As re racism, I fall firmly on the side that it "should" be discussed and it "should" be discouraged. ** > Some recently have said that talking to someone with views different > than our own, starkly different, validates the other persons views, > that is, it gives them legitimacy. That view is pure Bushian, in my > opinion. What are your views on dialogue -- even with people who hold > starkly different views than yourself? > **snip I'm in favor of dialogue. ** > In my view and experience, name calling, particularly super charged > words like "racist", completely shuts down diologue -- in the near > term and for a long time after that. And it shuts down the ability for > either party to listen and really hear the deeper issues and dynamics > behind the other party's words. The reptile brain takes over. Which is > the opposite effect I would have hypothesized about long-term PC > dippers. Perhaps Spraig and Vaj can elaborate on the research behind > this. > > Thus, per your actions of calling someone a racist, it would appear, > contrary to all other indications from your posts, that you are in the > Bush camp of diplomacy. I hope, and do not think, that is not the > case. > > What are your views on labeling people, processes for opening and > closing of dialogue, giving legitimacy to other parties via dialogue, > and the value of dialogue for understanding the deeper dynamics of why > a person or group feels, thinks and acts the way they do? > **snip There's a natural and immediate reaction in me to be labelled a "Bushian", and I would refute that term as it applies to me. In my first comments to L.Shaddai, however, I made particular point not to call him a racist. Rather, I commented that his statement was racist and reprehensible. A strong assertion, true, but it was an acknowledgement that perhaps he was not aware of how offensive his statements were and, if pointed out, he would take the opportunity to distance himself from them. However, on the contrary, he confirmed his position by implying that it was the "blacks" who were the real racists and made more derogatory claims regarding the "blacks". From that point on I have come to the conclusion that he is a racist. What's unfortunate is not that *I* have identified him as such, but that *he* has identified himself as such. Thanks for working to find some middle way, here. I hold no animus for L.Shaddai, and should he come to the unfortunate position in life that I was appointed to represent him in a criminal prosecution, I would do so gladly and with enthusiasm. But I do not endorse his views on race. Marek ** > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" <reavismarek@> > wrote: > > > > Shemp, I missed the remark you posted from Obama under your own name, > > so I won't comment on that. And as to a young person's insecurities > > re how they might best "fit in" with a world which for them is defined > > by all sorts of mis-matching pieces (single mom, absent dad, > > stepfather, Indonesia, absent mom, living with different race > > grandparents in Hawaii), I can easily cut him some slack for that. (As > > an aside, look at the monikers that folks who post here use as one > > marker of how they try to "fit in".) > > > > L.Shaddai's remarks, both his original post and subsequent replies, > > contained clear and offensive indicators that he believes "blacks" are > > inferior and debased; he was not expressing concern for the well- being > > of others. > > > > Your own remarks that folks should refrain from giving their children > > names that have charm or cultural significance within the community > > with which they identify, because that can be used to discriminate > > against them, has the argument all turned around. They're only names, > > not metrics of value (unless that's your shorthand for judging > > people). The larger community has to learn to look at the person, not > > succumb to prejudice. To encourage all the young "Baracks" in America > > to change their name to "Barry" so they'll fit in, is entirely the > > wrong message and one sent to the wrong party. > > > > Although racism is still a given in this country, it's changing and > > yielding towards the American ideal of meritocracy; an ideal that I'm > > positive you hold. > > > > Thanks for taking the time to address the issue. > > > > Marek > > > > ** > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <shempmcgurk@> > > wrote: > > > > > > One more thing to add to what I wrote below: > > > > > > A certain someone preferred to use the name "Barry" for the first 20 > > > or so years of his life because he felt uncomfortable with the given > > > name on his birth certificate. Perhaps that tells us something > > about > > > interacting in America with a name considered a wee bit out of the > > > ordinary. > > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <shempmcgurk@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "Marek Reavis" > > > > <reavismarek@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Pal, that (below) is a racist statement, plain and simple. It's > > > > > reprehensible and you are entirely wrong in the sentiment you > > > > express. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Marek: > > > > > > > > Several months ago I made a statement here on this forum about > > > Blacks > > > > having an advantage over other races on the basketball court. I > > > got > > > > several responses that the statement was racist (and also several > > > > that agreed with the statement). > > > > > > > > Of course, I then revealed that it wasn't ME who actually said it > > > but > > > > Barack Obama and I had made it seem as if I said it just to make a > > > > point. I then provided a link to a video of him saying it. > > > > > > > > Except for I-am-the-eternal using the word "all" as in "black guys > > > > and black women in the US all have to have their own cult names", > > I > > > > am at a loss as to why what he wrote is "racist". Certainly, it > > > is, > > > > at most, equally racist and, at least, much less racist than what > > > > Obama said about Blacks and basketball. > > > > > > > > The observation about unique names in the Black Community is not > > > and > > > > should not be a taboo subject. Indeed, it was the subject of one > > > of > > > > those newsmagazine shows (20/20? Primetime? Dateline NBC?) a > > while > > > > back. The premise of the show? The naming phenomenon in the > > Black > > > > Community often creates huge problems for those kids when they > > grow > > > > up and try to get jobs. In fact, it provides an opportunity for > > > > racists to practise their racism. > > > > > > > > As a lawyer you know that there are laws against requiring someone > > > to > > > > put a photograph on Resume's or identifying "race" when applying > > > for > > > > a job. Yet the "ghetto name" phenomenon is such that that is used > > > as > > > > an identifying marker by potential employees NOT to hire blacks > > and > > > > to do it with impunity. > > > > > > > > A white racist reading a resume submitted from a "Shaneequah > > > > Washington" can reject the application and not risk being accused > > > of > > > > prejudice. > > > > > > > > That I-am-the-eternal dares to broach this subject shows not only > > > > sensitivity on his part but I suggest genuine concern for African- > > > > Americans. > > > > > > > > http://tinyurl.com/caonfg > > > > > > > > http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=black+names > > > > > > > > http://www.blackghettobabynames.net/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ** > > > > > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal > > > <L.Shaddai@> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > **snip > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And I'm sure it's no coincidence that black guys and black > > > women > > > > in > > > > > the US > > > > > > all have to have their own cult names. So not only can you > > > spot > > > > > someone on > > > > > > the phone with the black variant of the southern accident, you > > > > can > > > > > spot 'em > > > > > > by their name as well. > > > > > > > > > > > > If only black mothers gave as much consideration to how they > > > will > > > > > rear a > > > > > > child they've just spawned as they give to coming up with a > > > > unique > > > > > name for > > > > > > the child. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
