--- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> --- In [email protected], "Rory Goff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > --- In [email protected], "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> <snip>
> > > > > Empathizing doesn't mean accepting; it *does*
> > > > > mean being able to acknowledge, and to tread
> > > > > carefully.
> > > >
> > > > I *do* acknowledge your assessment of your condition, and
that
> > > > for you your assessment of you is realer than mine is of you
> > > > (as of course it must and should be, if we are separate);
but
> > > > what is it I am to tread carefully around?
> > >
> > > *Feelings*.
> >
> > Yes; feelings are most important. What feelings are arising that
> > you would like me to tread carefully around?
>
> (I don't mean just you and just me specifically,
> although I include us.)
>
> Basically, for someone who is realized
Who is saying he is realized? Kill him! Scatter him to the winds!
:-)
>to say
> something to someone in ignorance
Who is saying she is in ignorance? Kill her! Scatter her to the
winds! :-)
>that suggests
> it's somehow their *fault* that they're still
> in ignorance, that they could turn it around in
> an instant if they would only pull up their
> socks, is hurtful. To tell them they're not
> really overshadowed, they just *imagine* they
> are, is hurtful. To treat their reality as
> any less real to them than what the realized
> person experiences as his or her reality is
> hurtful.
Yes, I can certainly see how all that would feel hurtful, Judy. FWIW
I have not intended to imply *fault* or lay *blame* on you, as I see
nothing to blame you *for*. I *have* expressed surprise that you see
yourself to be still in ignorance, for your wakeful presence in my
heart appears to argue otherwise. But hey, what do *I* know? :-)
If you feel that as hurtful, OK; so be it -- sometimes the waking-up
process itself can hurt -- sometimes even a *lot* -- but it happens
when it happens, and is something neither you nor I have a whit of
real control over. As you have implied, we cannot argue ourselves
into the one-pointedness or whole-heartedness that waking up might
require, until we suddenly can and do :-)
> MMY, for one, doesn't do that, but at the same
> time he doesn't thereby dilute the reality of
> realization in the slightest. (At least he
> doesn't do that in any of the tapes or written
> mterial that's available to rank-and-filers that
> I've seen.) He consistently respects the
> "Knowledge is different in different states of
> consciousness" dictum.
> I haven't ever found anything he's said to be
> hurtful.
Yes, and his actual presence -- and speech -- can be *intensely*
stimulating -- and *intensely* painful -- to one who is awakening.
But I've heard realized TMers say
> things that were hurtful in this respect and
> then blame those who found them hurtful for
> not wanting to know the truth, insisting that
> they themselves were only being compassionate.
I have no idea of what another is "really" feeling in themselves --
only how s/he feels *in me*. As such, s/he is always my perfect
mirror :-)
> It really feels like someone with great big
> muddy hobnailed boots trampling on one's
> very tenderest, most vulnerable feelings.
Yes, I can certainly see how this would be quite painful. You have
my deepest sympathies; heart-pain really sucks.
It would appear that if we are to avoid heart-pain in the future,
something has to change.
As you are unlikely to be able to get everyone around you to change,
you may have to settle for changing yourself -- for changing
your "story" of what is really going on.
If you actually want to heal, some Byron Katie-practice ("Loving
What Is") might be very helpful here. When we find ourselves upset
or pained by a particular thought (e.g. perhaps "People shouldn't
trample on my feelings with hobnail boots"), we might ask ourselves
something like this:
Do I know this thought to be true?
Do I *really* know this thought to be true?
Not asking myself to drop it, but how would I feel if I *didn't*
have this particular thought?
Is there a turn-around that is applicable? (Perhaps something
like "I shouldn't trample on people's feelings with hobnail boots"
or even "I shouldn't trample on my own feelings with hobnail boots.")
> I don't see how this can possibly be a good
> thing, both because it's so discouraging and
> because it tends to make one wonder whether
> realization itself is such a hot idea if it
> renders those who achieve it so insensitive.
Perhaps it isn't such a hot idea! :-) Seriously, AFAIK, Realization
(or Unrealization) arises when we see that such comparisons are
painful and we cease comparing ourselves to others, for good or
ill :-)
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